UK Cigar Box Guitar Fest 2010

Mark December 3, 2010 at 3:35pm

Glad to hear the flyers brought in at least one extra person (and an active contributor at that). I'm sorry I missed your set at Cambridge - when were you on? (I'm guessing you were on the club stage).

StumbleCol said:

Hi man,
I think advertising is the thing, I am one of those people, that you are talking about, I had been making and playing my own strange instruments, in isolation for a year, before this years Cambridge Folk Festival. I played at this years Cam Folk Fest and played half of my set on CBG, half on Resonator Guitar. I also picked up the flyer for the Uk CBG Fest and came to it and joined The Nation ! For a year though, I didn`t know about this community, I find it to be great, to see other people like me, making things at home, enjoying playing them and enjoying showing others what we`ve made. There could be others like I was, thinking that they are like, the only one doing this ! Getting Flyers out at other festivals is the way to go, to raise the profile and sell more tickets.
Col

ChickenboneJohn November 7, 2010 at 10:13am

Speaking as the organiser, on balance the venue worked pretty well for me. I reckon it was a combination of good fortune, being at the right time at the right place, having the right product to sell and the balls to try it on, that I got the venue. I only got the 2nd floor space a couple of days earlier, as we were going to have an open area of the main gallery floor, but when I asked if there was any chance of a seperate space for workshops plus a secure area, this is what they offered..and at no extra charge, which was a plus.

Negotiating venue charges is at the heart of getting this to work, especially as it was coming out of my pocket. It is very easy to be a bit slack if you've got a couple of grand of someone else's money sitting in the bank and then not pressing for the absolute best deal. I got them to move from a very serious venue fee to a door-split...and intend to pursue the same hard-nosed attitude to any future events. As promoter I believe in having the whip-hand and making the venue work for me, rather than the other way round.

Commercial sponsorship is very difficult to get, but pulling in grant funding is another matter. Generally sponsorship is like flogging a dead horse, an immense ammount of effort for a virtually guaranteed zero result, whereas grant funding is still very difficult, but it is not impossible - I know, I've done it in the past for community group clients, tho' it is getting tougher. Striking a deal with the venue is another matter - if we'd have been charged commercial rate for all the staff, room hire, pa hire etc etc the event wouldn't have happened - otherwise I'd have been thousands of pounds out of pocket.

Ticket price -I did wonder about upping the cost for the evening gig...but it is specialist, so getting 'passing trade' is tough anyway, unless I manage to hook a REALLY big name. Anyway, I reckon I've got a handle on how move forward - a combination of "steady as she goes", a bit of bloody mindedness and cockiness, some finely calculated risk-taking and extreme tightfistedness when it comes to keeping money in the pot.

John

Mark November 7, 2010 at 9:37am

I thought the venue was surprisingly good - especially considering the sort of budget involved. I think there are probably aspects of the event that could be improved but that's to be expected with anything like this.

At times it felt to me like the main space was actually a bit big and things got spread out a little thinly. But it seems harsh to complain about that - getting a lot of space for your money is surely a plus point and it was difficult to know in advance exactly how many people and exhibits there would be. I think most of the problem could be solved by improving the way the different areas were laid out - quite minor stuff really. I agree with Brian that it would be good to have an area with tables and chairs so people could chat in the festival space rather than feel they needed to go down to the bar. Perhaps if that could've been set up in the big open space in the middle it would have also improved the overall feel of the place.

Although the bar and restaurant was a couple of floors down there seemed to be no problem in bringing food and drink upstairs and the lifts seemed pretty efficient. I find it difficult to judge prices: I'm lucky enough to live in a part of the world where you seem to be able to get really good food and drink at quite reasonable prices - so almost anyhwere else seems expensive to me - but I've also lived in London in the past and most places seem cheap compared to that. My general feeling was I didn't think it was extortionate - not compared to most music festivals I've been to, where they effectively sell the concession holders the right to screw a captive market.

(One very small point: It was a bit confusing that they had tea and coffee stuff set out but it turned out to be not for our use).

Among the virtues of this year's venue were that it was relatively easy to get to by public transport and it had a reasonable budget hotel nearby. And, being in the Midlands, it balances out the travel distances from the rest of the country to some degree (OK, it's not perfect but, much as I like them, Aberdeen or Cornwall would be a very long way for some people). Maybe West Brom isn't the most beautiful location and it is rubbish for pizza but I had very nice Bangladeshi curry.

I liked the fact that the venue gave us a space which was exclusively ours. In particular it meant people could leave their instruments and other gear lying around in relative safety. However I think Brian might have a point about the visibility of the event to people outside. Some sort of display in the foyer or window areas might have addressed that - I know John was originally talking about some sort of exhibition so I'm guessing it just turned out to be impractical given everything else that had to be organised.

Publicity and marketing more generally is something that needs to be developed. This year was very much dependent on what individuals were able to do in their own time and with their own resources. I made up flyers and took them to Cambridge Folk Festival. I don't know what effect that had but it was worth a try. I think others made their own efforts. Posters would be nice but the ugly spectre of money rears its head again. Good posters cost money to design and print with decent quality. Cheap posters can look cheap - which might work for you in terms of a punk aesthetic or against you by just looking cheap. If the proposed organisation gets going (as per the "your group needs you" thread) then hopefully there will be more resources for marketing the event and making it visible.

Pricing seems like it will always be a tricky question with no right answer. I feel £25 for the day was about right this year in terms of balancing between the need to cover costs and the need to avoid deterring people from what is supposed to be a grassroots event promoting cheap-n-cheerful instruments. I also think we probably have to expect some sort of price increaee for 2011 because (even with the economic situation as it is) costs seem likely to go up rather than down.

If you want to charge more for the evening gig and try to pay more to the performers then you need to think about the numbers from a hard-headed business point of view. What audience are you going to draw (and particularly, what audience are you going to attract in addition to those at the daytime sessions)? Are you talking about performers who are mostly known in CBG circles or a specific music scene? - in which case it's hard enough as it is to draw in a broader public audience and you might find higher ticket prices lead to lower total takings. Or do you try for headliners with some sort of wider recognition? - in which case you're taking a bigger financial risk because they'll want more money. There is no easy answer.

It seems to me the big problem is the event has outgrown small bar-type venues that are are relatively cheap but it hasn't yet reached the size of a big established festival where you can hire a larger commercial venue with confidence that ticket income will cover costs. We have to work with what is out there in the real world. It's nice to think of finding a venue that provides the necessary space and facilities but is very informal and charges very little - I just don't know of anywhere like that.

For music or arts projects at this sort of stage in their development the best route to longer term success has tended to be some form of sponsorship - either directly (in the form of money from grant awarding bodies) or material assistance (such as venues with some sort of mission to promote the arts and which give below-cost deals to event organisers). I don't see that being such an easy thing to find in future (seeing as we now have a government whose main policies seem to be slashing budgets and replacing the public sector with money-grabbing private companies or volunteers who'll work for nothing).

Having said that, it was especially good to see John actually did have some sponsorship this year, which assisted in keeping the event open to people with low incomes. It's definitely worth keeping our eyes open for future sponsorship opportunities, it's just that we can't count on them.

Lastly, a minor point we can do nothing about, the name of the venue seemed to cause a little confusion. Some people I was trying to explain the event too seemed to think there was a word missing, as in "The public what?".

ChickenboneJohn November 5, 2010 at 12:01pm

Choosing a venue is a tough call...in some ways a pub is ideal..but this 'do' is more than just a gig..and that's where it get complicated.

I went to the UK Slide Guitar Festival earlier this year..held at a nice pub (hotel really) in a market town in the midlands... big room for concerts, small room for talks & demos, conservatory for jamming, all of which was great...but no parking, lousy public transport connections, a LOT of money to hire it, plus paying for lights, PA system....£6 for a large whiskey, nice but pricey food..you get the picture...it's not easy. Once you get beyond the standard pub gig requirements, they either don't want to know, or you are more into function/conference stuff, and they are happy to do it..but at a price.

I've played at too many working men's/conservative/labour clubs /British Legions to know I'm NEVER paid enough to go them!

It's early days yet...and a long way to go...

MrRandomWritings (Backwater Bri) November 5, 2010 at 10:15am

Hi John

You asked my thoughts regarding the 2010 UK fest so here I am, for better or worse!

This may sound critical but it is not meant to be other than in a constructive way in the hope that the festival experience can be improved in the future for the “members” of the CBG community and those who have yet to be converted. Obviously I wasn’t at the first one so I cannot make a comparison although I understand it was in a pub and there were issues regarding space and facilities.

Let me start with what I perceive to have been the aims this year:

1. Provide a meeting time and place for existing CBG enthusiasts to get to know each other and swap ideas, make friends etc

2. Introduce/welcome the public to the CBG revolution/culture

3. Allow/encourage amateur performers to play a few songs for the entertainment of their peers and the public and gain that valuable experience of doing so

4. Provide demonstration and teaching workshops etc

5. Allow sellers to show of their wares and sell their CBG related products

6. Allow fellow enthusiast to show of their creations and get their hands on other people’s guitars etc for ideas and so forth

7. Screen the films and/or other entertainments

8. Overall provide a day where everyone can have a pleasant experience with their fellow CBG nuts and try to spread the word

9. Raise the funds to cover the venue and the artists

Looking at the event as objectively as possible I think there were a number of failings in some areas. I know the venue was chosen because it was large and had the benefit of separate rooms for different activities off the main hall and to that extent it worked. However, I would venture to suggest the following issues (and I won’t mention the green paintwork!):

As a venue I think it was not ideal for the following reasons:

A. The limited availability of refreshments. I know you made arrangements for a lunch menu but during the period between the afternoon sessions and the gig we all had to find somewhere to eat. The hotel was short staffed in the kitchen so had a long waiting time – Pizza Hut had sold out of pizzas(!) – which left us with the second curry of the weekend. As a result we missed your evening performance.

B. The bar was expensive and had limited choice and was two floors away – as was the smoking area for we poor nicotine addicts!

C. I didn’t see any posters or advertisements for the event outside or inside the venue – I would have thought that since The Public had a financial interest in the event they could at least have put a few prominent notices somewhere

D. It was not easily accessible to the public being on the second floor – again with no advertising – so the chances of getting any passing trade was pretty non-existent

E. Although it was helpful to use all the space in the main hall I think we could have set it up better – I understand why you had one area for the film showings and a separate area for the open mic but perhaps it might have been more user friendly to have one focal point for those 2 activities and a separate seating area with some tables for people to sit and gossip and have a coffee or whatever – or combine the two so that it had an informal cabaret feel

F. With the pricing as it was I don’t think it would have encouraged many outsiders especially if they didn’t have a clue what it was about. Would you pay £25 to get into a strange event when you can’t have a sneaky peek from the outside to see what’s going on?

G. Some of the more informal chats I had sitting around with folk were downstairs in the bar which meant missing the action upstairs

So overall I feel that the venue itself let you down although some of the staff were most helpful.

To address these issues I would suggest you need somewhere that offers:

a) Food and drinks all day through to early evening

b) Easy access for the public so they can see what is going on maybe before they pay an entrance fee

c) Reduced fee for the day events and maybe a slightly higher fee for the evening entertainment

d) Loads of posters!

e) Separate rooms as before for workshops etc

f) Space for selling and maybe even a small exhibition area where non-sellers might like to leave their instruments safely on display with their name and details so people can just have a look at them and go talk to the owner

g) A more informal venue that doesn’t cost anything to hire or, very little, so more of the “fees” can be used towards the acts etc

h) Perhaps car parking should be a consideration as well for those who travelled quite a distance

Which leads me, I think, in the stepping backwards direction of finding a big pub with all those facilities (and real ale!). When I organised a few gigs in London most places were happy to let us have a room with a bar set up and snacks available because they got in so many more customers than they would otherwise have had. Anyone walking by would hear what was going on and come in for a listen as well as having the regulars on hand to add to the numbers and atmosphere. We just had a whip round to pay for the PA hire but I was never out of pocket at the end of the day.

Personally I think that kind of atmosphere suits the culture and the music better than a more formal venue and may attract more like minded people

As Ben (Roosterman) has suggested with the new “membership” thing it is all about economies of scale and of course the lower the venue hire fees the more there is available for other expenses; the lower the entrance fee and the more people you might get on board.

Would there be a place like a working men’s club or the Conservative Club (or other less popular party!) which could provide all the above? We are in a rural/tourist area and I am sure something like that could be achieved here – the ukulele club for example meets in a barn at a sports club with all the facilities and club prices!

If not a pub, perhaps the local CAMRA people could arrange a bar (tie it in with a mini beer festival or something) and you could offer a food “franchise” deal to someone to provide catering as they would have a captive audience?

Just some thoughts that might also take away some of the pressures of organising the event but adding value for the visitors.

Anyway that’s my take on it – hope there is something useful in amongst all that verbiage! And I should add that we had a blast anyway and thanks for organising it all!

Cheers

Brian