Posted by Dustin Smith on October 16, 2010 at 5:47am
Okay, I read a small article of a guy ranting about his guitars on an ebay page and I think he made some substantial points. First and foremost (which I've already discovered) is to avoid using metal directly on the box and especially the soundboard. A bolt is okay for the nut but he strongly advised against using excessive brass or sound hole covers. I kinda figured this out myself even though I really like using it. It threw me for a loop at first because on vintage guitars they tried throwing on as much brass as possible for resonance, but when I tried adding a brass cabinet pull I tested the acoustics it made a very distinct wah wah sound. It sounded better with it off. Next rule this guy has is be careful of the sound hole size. He believes 3/8" is optimal even though I've neglected this one. Whatever leaves the soundboard larger is preferable. Once again, he also suggests not to use brass grommets. This guy also had a problem with the through-body design saying that it will deaden the bass and requires too much work for the vibrations to reach the soundboard. He suggested using a broomstick design with a bridge in the body instead. I found this article a little disheartening because I've broken all these rules time and time again, but at the same token he's probably right. With all this said, do you believe tung oil on the body negatively effects the sound quality? What about oil based paint? I'm just kinda curious what your opinions are.
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I have used tung oil finnish on the face of an arturo fuente box. I used the back for the face and I put a few coats of the tung oil on to make it look a little better and seal it from dirty hands. The sound was very nice from this one, did it effect it? I have no way of knowing because I didn't try it before it had the oil on it, but I doubt it, its very thin. Keep on breaking the rules, but how can you break them there are no rules in CBG building.
That eBay guy is talking baloney. A couple of things he says might have some relationship to fact but most of it is moronic fiction. His marketing video is laughable and only undermines any claim he might make about his guitar building prowess.
The best size for a sound hole will depend on lots of factors - including the size and shape of your box and the sort of tone you're trying to get from your guitar. There is simply no single right answer so recommending 3/8" is just stupid.
"A flat plank neck without a trussrod bends easily, a straight round dowel of hardwood is much stonger." - Rubbish! It depends what timber you use for a "flat plank neck" and what its dimensions are. A rectangular section neck is fine if it's made from a decent hardwood and it's thick enough. Conversely, a dowel that's not thick enough will bend.
What he says about oak is also baloney. I've made a guitar with an oak neck and I've played others and they sound great to my ear. I wouldn't particularly recommend oak because it's tougher to work than some other woods, but it certainly doesn't make guitars unplayable.
The stuff about "the sound comes off the face of the guitar not from inside" is a misleading half truth. Research has shown that a significant part of the sound of an acoustic guitar does come off the face of the soundboard, but another part of the sound comes out of the sound hole. And each part of the sound is affected by multiple factors. All parts of a guitar vibrate to some extent and the vibrations of the different parts interact in complex ways.
And so on....I'm sure there are others here who can take apart the rest of what the guy says, including his slightly incoherent thoughts about pickups.
The fact that you've broken all this guy's rules in the past shouldn't dishearten you, rather it ought to suggest that you probably know more than he does.
As for your other question about oil on the body. I don't know about tung oil, but I've used oil and wax finishes without problem. I tend to use oil on necks rather than boxes/bodies. The oil I use is stuff that's marketed as a finish for wood furniture, I don't know if it's tung oil or not, I just know it produces a really nice finish. Most recently I've finished boxes by applying a product I found that was described as a matt varnish. This seems to harden the surface a bit and it can be topped off with a coat or two of wax to give a nice sheen (the varnish tin actually recommends this). I should add that you only wax areas of the box where the wood is exposed - on areas where there is a paper coating I just leave them with the varnish, which seems to protect the paper without discolouring it.
Ok, sounds like complete marketing crap. crap. crap. Dude, whomever you are quoting doesn't sound like they are from the Nation here and I guarantee you, tho you will get 100 different pieces of advice, they will be nothing like you quoted above.
"Some CBGs come without frets, or have painted or burned lines as markers, these are sliders, the seller will tell you you can chord with them but it is next to impossible, "
Uh huh. Ask Shane what he thinks about that comment.
Um, my suggestion: don't even give this person the time of day. They don't have a clue what they are talking about. They prolly don't even build much.
Oh yeah, need I say that sometimes I do add a brass cabinet pull if I notice that the sound I'm removing is "chimey" which it often times is. I dunno, it just seems to balance out the tone, but it definitely reduces the noise of it. The tung oil and paint question may sound dumb but I've always neglected using either one of these but clearly intend to....lack of experience in these two products.
Yeah no problem, better than sending the link I'll just copy and paste what this guy is saying And I quote (not my advice necessarily):
A flat plank neck without a trussrod bends easily, a straight round dowel of hardwood is much stonger. most inexpensive CBGs are made of poplar beware of this material in necks. Despite what makers say the type of wood used for a straight through neck does affect sound. although oak doesnt bend easy it has a terrible sound and isnt used in any high end musical instruments. poplar will sound a bit better but not the best sound and will bend over time even with weather conditions.
Oak necks are top heavy, unbalanced and makes playing difficult.
Some CBGs come without frets, or have painted or burned lines as markers, these are sliders, the seller will tell you you can chord with them but it is next to impossible, unless youre playing single notes. You will find these very uncomfortable if you dont soley play slide. CBGs with toothpick frets will wear grooves in them quickly way faster than metal frets will.
Beware of shiny acessories. the more metal you have in a guitar body the worse it will sound. watch out for brass corners and hole grommets on the soundboard. a brass nut is okay but a bolt bridge will sound terrible. A wood or bone floating bridge gives the best sound. Big holes in the soundboard and brass corners mean less vibration area in the soundboard, the music comes off the wood on the face not the sound hole.
Through the body plank style CBGs sometimes have no airspace between the neck and the soundboard. the neck sits flush with the soundboard deadening the sound, combined with large holes and metal grommets it gives you even less resonance area on the soundboard.
Some makers will tell you the guitar can only be heard in the middle of the night, playing alone in the dark, because of the small size of the box. This isnt true, again its because of the big holes shiny acessories metal bridge and plank deadening the soundboard. You can hear a solid body electric in the middle of the night not plugged in, dont fall for this.
Many CBGs that are acoustic electric have electric guitar pickups, this is a lie electric guitar pickups only pick up string vibration so again big hole for the pickup, big hole for the jackplate, and big grommet holes for decoration will not sound good acoustically. It is basically and electric stick with a non functional cigar box body.
a through the body neck where the strings go through an extention spike at the bottom require more pressure on the bridge to sound. this pressure eventually caves the soundboard in and warps the neck.
A 3/8" soundhole is all you need to get proper bass responce coming back to the player. The music the audience hears comes off the soundboard it doesnt come from inside the guitar. What you hear when you play and what the audience hears are two different things.
Some cigar boxes are only wood on the back, builders use the pressboard side as a soundboard and leave the back plain wood to make you think the whole box is wood, when they should use the back as the soundboard. the soundboard of a real guitar must be wood the rest of the body can be paper mache' etc. Again the sound comes off the face of the guitar not from inside.
The back of the box is tight like a drum if the pressboard top is used, and not reinforced, and glued down tight, it will not sound right.
All wood cigar boxes with hinges and hasps that open up and aren't glued shut will not sound good. also the thick renforcement around the sides will deaden the soundboard and not allow it to ring properly. You want thin sidewalls like a real acoustic guitar.
A piezo transducer or a microphone, is the only way to pickup true acoustic sound. For tin or resophonic CBGs a microphone must be used to get the metallic tone, a guitar pickup or piezo transducer will not work.
Some builders will actually tell you that a bad sounding instrument adds to the charm and the nostalgia of a cigar box guitar and will charge more than an actual guitar would cost. Over and over you will hear words like "crude" and "primative" the fact is made the right way they were made in the 20s and 30s they are very good sounding advanced acoustic instruments.
Now keep in mind like I said, I pretty much ignore all of these points. I'm not a "master builder" and I have 10 builds under my sleeve, therefore any "knowledge" is worthwhile to me and I usually try to feed off and learn from other's mistakes before I make them myself. I couldn't be more aware it's just a cigar box, I'm the guy who told a master builder "it's not a stick with a box, but more of a box with a stick." Shitty me...
Wes Yates said:
You know, they may have some points but the biggest issue I've run into is the backside. I found quite abruptly that if you press your body, or any other part of your body onto the backside of the box, it will drastically change the sound. That is it will deaden it. I've had no issues with metal on the topside.
Now, you will find those who pontificate as to the best way to build a CBG and for them it works, but really, these are cigar boxes. They were meant to package cigars, not be musical instruments.
When I build I make a recess for the box lid and then an extra 1/16" recess for the lid to vibrate. Acoustic only tho. Mag pickup electric it's not as necessary as the 'sound' mostly comes from the strings interfering with the magnetic field. Science aside...
Anyhow, my suggestion is not to overload the top if its acoustic, and if you don't like the sound, build another one.
Sounds like you build and have heard this guy and feel you're somehow wrong. There is a video up [at the time of my post] where this guy says how not to build a CBG. For the life of us, we can't see what he means [ ie. it sounds great ]. Chief, you're doing great if it plays. Tung oil? Ask Josh Gayou (Master Builder IMHO). He uses Tung Oil. Sound Holes? Just don't put them on upside down or the lower notes will come out first (kidding).
It's amazing how someone with 3-5 builds under their belt is an "instant expert".... I almost never pass along "second hand" building "rules" from anyone but absolutely recognized expert builders (100+ builds) and even we disagree a lot.
I don't have a problem with a neck-thru, so long as it does not touch the bottom of the box at all, and touches the top only a 1/2" or so at the heel and tail. If the neck is going into the box and only butting against the tail end of the guitar, I keep the tailblock as small as I can, only large enough in to which to drill a tail piece. I agree with Wes, I perch the guitar on my thigh when playing and try not to clutch it to my torso -- that quiets it up for sure! Yup to that soundhole argument -- smaller is better. Small scale sound-hole covers are not a problem for me. But I did build one early on with a brass rheostat switchplate cover -- very heavy and very beautiful -- and the thing sounded like it was made of wet cardboard. Two broken rules there -- overdone embellishment and a huge soundhole. Live and learn.
Love the tung oil -- no downside there. I've painted boxes and they look great, and I don't think it effects the sound much at all. We are talking about a cigar box, not tonewood.
You know, they may have some points but the biggest issue I've run into is the backside. I found quite abruptly that if you press your body, or any other part of your body onto the backside of the box, it will drastically change the sound. That is it will deaden it. I've had no issues with metal on the topside.
Now, you will find those who pontificate as to the best way to build a CBG and for them it works, but really, these are cigar boxes. They were meant to package cigars, not be musical instruments.
When I build I make a recess for the box lid and then an extra 1/16" recess for the lid to vibrate. Acoustic only tho. Mag pickup electric it's not as necessary as the 'sound' mostly comes from the strings interfering with the magnetic field. Science aside...
Anyhow, my suggestion is not to overload the top if its acoustic, and if you don't like the sound, build another one.
Sounds like you build and have heard this guy and feel you're somehow wrong. There is a video up [at the time of my post] where this guy says how not to build a CBG. For the life of us, we can't see what he means [ ie. it sounds great ]. Chief, you're doing great if it plays. Tung oil? Ask Josh Gayou (Master Builder IMHO). He uses Tung Oil. Sound Holes? Just don't put them on upside down or the lower notes will come out first (kidding).
Replies
The best size for a sound hole will depend on lots of factors - including the size and shape of your box and the sort of tone you're trying to get from your guitar. There is simply no single right answer so recommending 3/8" is just stupid.
"A flat plank neck without a trussrod bends easily, a straight round dowel of hardwood is much stonger." - Rubbish! It depends what timber you use for a "flat plank neck" and what its dimensions are. A rectangular section neck is fine if it's made from a decent hardwood and it's thick enough. Conversely, a dowel that's not thick enough will bend.
What he says about oak is also baloney. I've made a guitar with an oak neck and I've played others and they sound great to my ear. I wouldn't particularly recommend oak because it's tougher to work than some other woods, but it certainly doesn't make guitars unplayable.
The stuff about "the sound comes off the face of the guitar not from inside" is a misleading half truth. Research has shown that a significant part of the sound of an acoustic guitar does come off the face of the soundboard, but another part of the sound comes out of the sound hole. And each part of the sound is affected by multiple factors. All parts of a guitar vibrate to some extent and the vibrations of the different parts interact in complex ways.
And so on....I'm sure there are others here who can take apart the rest of what the guy says, including his slightly incoherent thoughts about pickups.
The fact that you've broken all this guy's rules in the past shouldn't dishearten you, rather it ought to suggest that you probably know more than he does.
As for your other question about oil on the body. I don't know about tung oil, but I've used oil and wax finishes without problem. I tend to use oil on necks rather than boxes/bodies. The oil I use is stuff that's marketed as a finish for wood furniture, I don't know if it's tung oil or not, I just know it produces a really nice finish. Most recently I've finished boxes by applying a product I found that was described as a matt varnish. This seems to harden the surface a bit and it can be topped off with a coat or two of wax to give a nice sheen (the varnish tin actually recommends this). I should add that you only wax areas of the box where the wood is exposed - on areas where there is a paper coating I just leave them with the varnish, which seems to protect the paper without discolouring it.
Anyone recognize it?
Here's the youtube vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WulMxARYAoc
Dude, I make better sounding boxes that these.
-WY
"Some CBGs come without frets, or have painted or burned lines as markers, these are sliders, the seller will tell you you can chord with them but it is next to impossible, "
Uh huh. Ask Shane what he thinks about that comment.
Um, my suggestion: don't even give this person the time of day. They don't have a clue what they are talking about. They prolly don't even build much.
Here's the link
http://cgi.ebay.com/Robert-Johnson-New-Acoustic-Electric-Cigar-Box-....
-WY
A flat plank neck without a trussrod bends easily, a straight round dowel of hardwood is much stonger. most inexpensive CBGs are made of poplar beware of this material in necks. Despite what makers say the type of wood used for a straight through neck does affect sound. although oak doesnt bend easy it has a terrible sound and isnt used in any high end musical instruments. poplar will sound a bit better but not the best sound and will bend over time even with weather conditions.
Oak necks are top heavy, unbalanced and makes playing difficult.
Some CBGs come without frets, or have painted or burned lines as markers, these are sliders, the seller will tell you you can chord with them but it is next to impossible, unless youre playing single notes. You will find these very uncomfortable if you dont soley play slide. CBGs with toothpick frets will wear grooves in them quickly way faster than metal frets will.
Beware of shiny acessories. the more metal you have in a guitar body the worse it will sound. watch out for brass corners and hole grommets on the soundboard. a brass nut is okay but a bolt bridge will sound terrible. A wood or bone floating bridge gives the best sound. Big holes in the soundboard and brass corners mean less vibration area in the soundboard, the music comes off the wood on the face not the sound hole.
Through the body plank style CBGs sometimes have no airspace between the neck and the soundboard. the neck sits flush with the soundboard deadening the sound, combined with large holes and metal grommets it gives you even less resonance area on the soundboard.
Some makers will tell you the guitar can only be heard in the middle of the night, playing alone in the dark, because of the small size of the box. This isnt true, again its because of the big holes shiny acessories metal bridge and plank deadening the soundboard. You can hear a solid body electric in the middle of the night not plugged in, dont fall for this.
Many CBGs that are acoustic electric have electric guitar pickups, this is a lie electric guitar pickups only pick up string vibration so again big hole for the pickup, big hole for the jackplate, and big grommet holes for decoration will not sound good acoustically. It is basically and electric stick with a non functional cigar box body.
a through the body neck where the strings go through an extention spike at the bottom require more pressure on the bridge to sound. this pressure eventually caves the soundboard in and warps the neck.
A 3/8" soundhole is all you need to get proper bass responce coming back to the player. The music the audience hears comes off the soundboard it doesnt come from inside the guitar. What you hear when you play and what the audience hears are two different things.
Some cigar boxes are only wood on the back, builders use the pressboard side as a soundboard and leave the back plain wood to make you think the whole box is wood, when they should use the back as the soundboard. the soundboard of a real guitar must be wood the rest of the body can be paper mache' etc. Again the sound comes off the face of the guitar not from inside.
The back of the box is tight like a drum if the pressboard top is used, and not reinforced, and glued down tight, it will not sound right.
All wood cigar boxes with hinges and hasps that open up and aren't glued shut will not sound good. also the thick renforcement around the sides will deaden the soundboard and not allow it to ring properly. You want thin sidewalls like a real acoustic guitar.
A piezo transducer or a microphone, is the only way to pickup true acoustic sound. For tin or resophonic CBGs a microphone must be used to get the metallic tone, a guitar pickup or piezo transducer will not work.
Some builders will actually tell you that a bad sounding instrument adds to the charm and the nostalgia of a cigar box guitar and will charge more than an actual guitar would cost. Over and over you will hear words like "crude" and "primative" the fact is made the right way they were made in the 20s and 30s they are very good sounding advanced acoustic instruments.
Now keep in mind like I said, I pretty much ignore all of these points. I'm not a "master builder" and I have 10 builds under my sleeve, therefore any "knowledge" is worthwhile to me and I usually try to feed off and learn from other's mistakes before I make them myself. I couldn't be more aware it's just a cigar box, I'm the guy who told a master builder "it's not a stick with a box, but more of a box with a stick." Shitty me...
Wes Yates said:
build it, play it, like it, do it again........
It's amazing how someone with 3-5 builds under their belt is an "instant expert".... I almost never pass along "second hand" building "rules" from anyone but absolutely recognized expert builders (100+ builds) and even we disagree a lot.
the best,
Wichita Sam
Love the tung oil -- no downside there. I've painted boxes and they look great, and I don't think it effects the sound much at all. We are talking about a cigar box, not tonewood.-WY
Now, you will find those who pontificate as to the best way to build a CBG and for them it works, but really, these are cigar boxes. They were meant to package cigars, not be musical instruments.
When I build I make a recess for the box lid and then an extra 1/16" recess for the lid to vibrate. Acoustic only tho. Mag pickup electric it's not as necessary as the 'sound' mostly comes from the strings interfering with the magnetic field. Science aside...
Anyhow, my suggestion is not to overload the top if its acoustic, and if you don't like the sound, build another one.
Sounds like you build and have heard this guy and feel you're somehow wrong. There is a video up [at the time of my post] where this guy says how not to build a CBG. For the life of us, we can't see what he means [ ie. it sounds great ]. Chief, you're doing great if it plays. Tung oil? Ask Josh Gayou (Master Builder IMHO). He uses Tung Oil. Sound Holes? Just don't put them on upside down or the lower notes will come out first (kidding).
Build on!
Oh and send us a link. I'd like to read that.
-WY