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Are Musicians Snobs??? I don't know!

I have had a great deal of fun building instruments of different kinds but can't claim to be a musician. I had played the cello in high school forty five years ago and started with the harp in 1990. I quickly learned that the harp is a snooty instrument world. Its inhabited by long slender women with long slender fingers - quite a few men too. Mostly guys are harp builders and movers. I accepted my plight and muddled along. I tried a half dozen teachers over the years and learned that they all could play much better than me. Teachers usually can play but seldom can teach. I have been raising my long slender fingered daughter since she was seven. She has been through another half dozen expert harp player teachers who couldn't teach. We had fun but neither of us became musicians. The fun became work and we didn't get much support. I am still active in the harp world but less so.

With the loss of my shop I had to regroup. I fully realized that there was no way I could rebuild this mess and replace it all. Not enough years or earning power left, short of winning the lottery, and I don't play it. It struck me that playing some blue grass and such might be fun. I went for a strumstick style instrument since it seemed sort of do-able. This led me to CigarBoxNation by way of the search engines on the internet.

I discovered that building cigarbox gits was a bit more complex than it originally seemed but still fun and possible. Now I had to figure out how to play. Had to work on tabs and tuning and stringing and scale lengths and piezos and learn about amps and all kinds of stuff. I still find that I don't want to work hard at reading music and memorizing songs and so I DIDN"T DO IT. !! What I did do was learn a bit about the old delta blues and when I started hearing it, It just went click !! That was the sound that had been missing from my life. Its always been there and now I hear it in commercials and background music and in my head. Amazing how often it pops up. A little riff hear and there!!

So I spent a lot of time dinking around or I guess its called noodling? And pretty soon I am making bluesy kinds of sounds and feeling kinda good about it all. No more than that !! I became happy about it. Now for an old fart happy is kind of elusive and certainly noticeable. As I got better I wanted to share it and show off - kinda natural to do that but this is some strange stuff to lots of folks.

Next I discovered that guitar people by and large are snobs. Mean thing to say maybe, but dang, they sneer at me from a distance and talk a strange language about amps and guitars and stuff that seem awfully important to them. They don't seem interested in this music thing I have discovered..... Then I met a guy that works at Lowes and he is completely blown away by my cigarbox guitars and loves them and the sound. And I have a couple of other folks about the same. I have met two old blues guys who play this style music really good - I mean really, really, good. I recently got a nice amp - a Roland Micro that makes me sound really good and has me brave enough to go out and play some in public at least around "friends" I have noticed that everyone who has played much on a standard guitar is NOT impressed and that every one else is highly impressed and seem to really like this music. I have worked out several general patterns of play that no doubt are songs of some kind. All from my head and heart and fun to me. I find it a bit disturbing to find this attitude so often. I have observed it in dulcimer players, they seem to be stuck on the makers name and how much they paid for the dulcimer. I have definitely seen it all over the harp world - I am presuming that there are fifty different guitar worlds - everything from flamenco to twelve string to metal to who knows what. I was astonished to see an 800 dollar Uke and totally blown away to see a ten thousand dollar guitar.... I am totally impressed by how friendly the folks on CigarBoxNation.com are and how much fun this music is - I hope cigar box builders and players never develop this snob thing. I for one am just delighted to be part of all this. I also fully realize that there are guitar players and musicians of all kinds that do have an open mind - it just seems they are a bit rare. Comments welcome - thanks, Bill Ludeman
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I literally put my tuning machines or tuners on upside down AND backwards on my first build. I had no clue there was a right way. After a comment clued me in, I went to Guitar Center and observed that their was a pattern that was always followed. The objective is to have them installed such that the string tension pulls the shaft into the gear instead of away from it. I am using inexpensive Ping Economy tuners and if I put them on right they stay tight. Backwards works ok but there is a noticeable difference. Finding a balance of useful parts has driven me to intentionally put them on upside down to not waste tuners. I also flip em any way that works on my didley bows. I have noticed in the 20,000 + pics on this site that tuners land on necks lots of different ways so I would say this fits the NO RULES rule.
What if there were no hypothetical questions?
Regardless of rules or not I would like to do the best I can and have the machines working correctly if possible so I have learned to follow the standard guitar builder protocol. It is shaft towards the bridge and knob shaft up which is easier to type than to visualize for an old dyslexic like me. It still have to draw myself pictures to get 'em right. I also made patterns out of card stock so I could do standard layouts without twisting my thinker.
So here is a photo essay to help show the difference - its pictures of four of my builds.

Left side is correct notice that the knob shaft is above the gear. Also in the playing position the knobs all turn in a logical direction and the two upper strings are controlled by the upper knobs. The guitar on the right is the very first one I ever built and it is literally upside down and backwards. It works great !! Not loose or anything. I had an early comment about it that ask if it was left handed? Which caused me to figure all this out. Thanks Ted.....

Back of neck - string pulls down on the geared shaft thru the neck and tends to tighten the mechanism on the left side picture. On the right side example it tends to lift the gears apart. Correctly installed its always adjusting itself tighter - backwards works ok because most of our stuff is lightly strung. I suspect its a bigger issue with tighter tuning like Dad strumsticks and such? Just guessing on that.....


Top correct and bottom upside down. See the gear shaft thru the neck? String tension wants to pull the gears away from each other.


Top example is correct and bottom is upside down. This is the three in line which I decided I didn't like. It requires something to hold the strings down. Might be alright with more head angle. I made it work ok - its just not as simple and elegant as some other schemes. KISS ! I have gotten pretty used to glancing at these now and seeing which is right - the shaft with the knob needs to be up - not down.


Bottom is correct and top is flipped. Notice the knobs are higher on the back than the string end? Also didn't get all the bandsaw teeth marks sanded out of the top one... Argh! Sometimes I wish that camera wasn't quite so good.

Another shot of my first one upside down and backwards - simple to see that the knobs are down in relation to the shafts. Works fine and holds tune well - Built it in August of 2009 and played it lots. I do not hesitate to put them on however I need to but I guarantee that a trip to a guitar store will show that ALL the commercial guitar tuners are installed one way. Fortunately for us we have lightly strung stuff (mostly) and NO RULES
Ain't it great !! Bill
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Pop Rivet string sleeves tips and how-to

The best string sleeves I have found are simply pop rivets. I originally bought a small box of 25 from Ace Hardware and paid way to much. Next I found them at Lowes for about half the price Ace got but still cost me 4 or 5 bucks for a small box of a hundred. Then I found a box of five hundred at "Harbor Freight" for four bucks.
Here is the URL for these. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=42529
That will get you = 500 Piece 1/8" x 1/4" Standard Rivets = ITEM 42529-1VGA $3.99

Now the next problem which I learned a long time ago is how to get the shank out of the rivet. I have done a little photo essay to show how I do it.

The story is that you stick the rivet in a pair of pliers with the collar of the head up against the pliers to support it. and turn the thing over and tap on your hard work surface. Do NOT squeeze to hard with the pliers and gentle taps are all it will take. I get em out in three taps and my sixteen yr old daughter happily does them for me now and is extremely fast at it. The rivet shanks are aluminum so save them for recycle. I use six rivets three on the bottom and three on the of the tailpiece. I intentionally leave my tailpiece long so I have a wrist rest. A one eighth inch drill bit makes a press fit for these rivets and beautifully trims and protects the wood from the string. The cost for six is less than a nickel a per three string guitar...... I put descriptive captions on each pic in my pictures section to help clarify. Hope this helps out. Bill

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My shop burned to the ground in June of 2009. Nobody knows for sure what caused it - the fire dept asked me if it was electrical and I said I don't see how, since everything was turned off - so they put it down to electrical..... No insurance.
I had forty years and two hundred thousand dollars invested in that building and contents. I had spent a huge amount of time in it building and designing stuff, including half a dozen harps and all my patterns and jigs for building my harp designs. I am used to puttering around constantly and I'm always doing something. I had an old cheap cast table saw in storage and an old three wheel sears bandsaw, plus a chinese 8 inch drill press. I dug them out and sniveled a bit. I was spoiled by my investment in high quality stuff. My Grizzly table saw weighed more than four hundred pounds and could split a whisker. My Rikon bandsaw was simply superb and I loved it. Its neck after the fire looked like a flamingo's, all warped. I had little routers and a router table and more, all told ten routers were melted down.
Enough of that story. I raided pawn shops in Jacksonville and came up with a 3/8 inch hand drill, a cheapo router and a Ryobi router table with a router attached. Dusted off the band saw and checked the setup. Nice but no power. Checked out the table saw. Tried to skin a rough board like a poormans jointer - wobble marks - I bought a forty dollar blade and it helped but it still left a wobble cut on everything.- still it cut. Set up my storage shed as a sort of shop.
Now I had been considering buying a Mcnally strumstick or building a Musicmaker Strumbly for several years and I thought what the h_ll I can build something like that without much of a shop. So I set out to figure out what kind of project this would be. While running endless internet searches for free music and info on tuning etc. I ran across CigarBoxNation.com At that point it "only" had seven thousand pictures posted and it was about six months old. I was completely blown away Hooked is probably the word..... That was in late July of 2009 ..............

I set out to find a cigar box. None to be found in my little town so off to the flea market. None there either so ten more miles and I am in downtown St Augustine Fl which has a few cigar shops. Cost me four dollars to park and two hours of walking and I had four cigar boxes that I had to pay five bucks a piece for. Way too much, but I was happy. I did some lay out work and decided I had to have frets since I was still trying for a strumstick type instrument. Also decided that since I had learned of piezo pickups on Cigarboxnation that I had to have one of those too. So I put one together. I got the tuners on upside down and backwards. (really) I got the toothpick frets glued on slightly crooked and slightly off intonation wise. Still it sounded good (still does) I had so much fun with it that I just took off like a maniac and built a half dozen more. Finally I decided to try a slide and that was a major turning point for me. I have had HUGE fun with the slides and dearly love the old delta blues sound. I have built up a repertoire of noise that nobody complains about so maybe its music. My daughter said she thought I was playing a CD and it was me so I must be getting better.

These things breed at night I swear they do. I know have four two string didly bows - three two string didly bows seven slide blues guitars and four strumstick style fretted - plus a my old canjo and four or five of my original builds that I don't even count anymore.

So I set out right around Christmas to sell some - I figured as much fun as I was having somebody else would want on this bandwagon. I have spent a huge amount of time fooling with Ebay and generally don't like it. It might work out but I am taking a break from it for a while.
I started going to a music swap meet down by Orlando at the Mount Dora flea market last month and again this month. No sales and quite a bit of money spent. However I have learned a great deal about my current taste in music and about the average guitarists perception of cigar box guitars. More importantly I discovered that in order to sell these things I HAVE TO master the music and I had to get some power. The March swap meet was expensive for me but I got two amps one that has fifteen watts of power and it makes my cigarbox guitars sound great.
The really good news is that I scored a Roland Micro amp. Nearly as much useful power as the `15watt and it has 22 effects built in !!!!!!!! I have had an absolute blast playing with this thing and I swear it makes me sound like I know what I am doing.

I have sold three of my builds and made decent money on two of those sales. I have had a great deal of interest in all of them. Guitarists seem to have a snooty ego about them and generally don't like them. The general non musician public seems to love them and the music. I have become pretty dedicated to finding the key to what will sell. Partly the Johnny Appleseed effect - Its just too much fun not to share. I have a plan and will share how it works out right here.

I am going to post some more blog notes on building tips here as I get time to do so - but thats it for now.
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Amp

Hi all anyone out there got any ideas bout amp's that are controlled via the guitar ive been doing them switch to the speaker then to the battery and then the jack is there a better way ?
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About me

hi my name is cory wheeler i live in saint petersburg florida originally from portland oregon i joined up here because i got it in my mind to make one of them CBG's.. i am the kind of person who is not happy unless i am building some kind of project. I have been a musician since 10 years old playing in bands that range from blues to surf and played thousands of gigs... during the day i do electronic repair for local music stores it doesnt get me rich but i enjoy what i do so i guess that i am pretty lucky that i have something!...anyway i am on here to make freinds and get some tips..i am in the middle of a tube amplifier project right now but it is almost done and i am planning my next project already ....a cigar box guitar ...i am going to check out whats going on here and get it in my mind the type and construction i will want for my box...i have seen some fine work in your pages to get some ideas...thanks........Cory

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If you're lookin' for a fool... here I am

They say that a fool and his money are soon parted. Man, I would pay someone a lot of cash to explain that to me.....

Today started out ok. Very tired due to daylight savings and early work hours, but work went by pretty quickly and I was able to get a lot of shop time in.

Made a lot of great progress, too. Got everything drilled out, tuners aligned, and everything was perfect. Now, I'm not all that great, and usually I'll get it "good enough," but when I say perfect I mean PERFECT.

Then I botched it all... cut my neck way too thin. And I mean, WAAAAAY too thin.

And this evening, I discovered that the best way to clean a cell phone is not to put it through the clothes washing machine.

Damn. Decent, to great, to bad, to worse. What a day.


The good news is, like with some f**kups, I think I can salvage the neck. I'm going to try to laminate a strip of maple on the back of it. So, with any luck, this will result in A) me not having to add to the firewood pile, B) a cooler looking neck than it was going to be before, C) a more comfortable feeling neck, and D) a stronger neck.

It's going to be a challenge cutting and glueing the maple to the neck, for sure. Fitting it will be very challenging, I reckon. But I enjoy a challenge in general, and the challenge of fixing a f**kup and making it better than before in particular.

The phone, on the other hand, is toast.

Ya win some, ya lose some.

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earthing

Helo all I could use a bit of help if poss Ime wondering would i be able to earth volume on a strap button or sound hole if made of metal all help greatly accepted
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Chord Chemistry 101

Introduction

by Keni Lee Burgess

Note: These lectures are intended to clarify and suppliment my instructional videos CDs. Series 5 (4 string Cigar Box Guitar) will directly reflect the examples presented in these lectures, but due to the fact we are working in Open G Tuning, CD 2 and CD 4 are also applicable.

This series of lectures on musical theory is applicable to any tuning or any stringed instruments regardless of the number of strings on the instrument. For educational purposes, I will use Spanish Tuning (aka Open G Tuning) as a standard, and cite examples played on a 4 string fretted Cigar Box Gutiar. The guitar is tuned from low to high D g b d. I am using strings D g b e from a standard pack of medium strings. For reference purposes, the strings are numbered 1-d, 2-b, 3-g, 4-D The thinnist string is closest to the floor.

Open tunings basically reduces the instrument into a one key instrument. The scales, chord progressions, and musical theory are clearly displayed across the fingerboard (like a piano) unlike a conventionally tuned standard guitar that uses a compromised tuning to facilitate playing in all 13 keys.

The goal of these lectures is to provide a firm foundation in building, understanding the organization, and use of basic chords. It is my opinion, that learning this information will provide an opportunity to study the fingerboard in a step by step process that will reveal how chords are connected together to arrange songs. Using the Major Scale as a reference point and learning to see the fingerboard as one interconnected whole will make this process easier.

I would strongly suggest, after reading the lecture, pick up the guitar, and find all the information on the guitar for yourself. Feel free to read ahead, but most of the real learning will take place as you continue to apply and experiment with the information.

Note: These pages will be constantly edited to improve clearity of instruction. Your questions and feedback are greatly appreciated.

Enjoy, Keni Lee

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dire srtaits on a three string

Just been wondering if anyone out there knows a way of playing dire straits on the three string ime not music note wise minded i just mess till i like the sound but it seems to me that this would be possible with great effect and would bring a great deal of admaration from peaple out side of the cigar box world.
Ime not shure but itseems that ther is a fair amount of guitarickary in wot knophler does lots of slides hammers and pulloffs just wondering whao other peaple think am i right or tottaly barking up the wrong tree ?
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Open letter to that Nation

DISCLAIMER: NONE of the comments below reflect those of Cigar Box Nation site or as a whole nor any of its members nor Shane Speal himself or anyone associated with him. These are my thoughts and opinions solely. I don't own the site nor am I admin of any kind. Please pardon the length whatever it becomes. Stop if you had enough. I warn you, its a manifesto. In fact, this might get me kicked off (I hope not tho). Rebut if you will. Its a free country. - WY

Wes,

the Nation is a rhorshock test.... it is what you want to see it is.Under Shane it's nature will ebb and flow like the seasons. But, it isbig enough that you can find a little corner and get comfortable.
...

Sam

So I have to reflect on these words now as I have been in the middle of trying to decide how to react to a growing sentiment from old Nation members as to how the Nation has changed, what it's doing wrong: basically the state of the Nation currently. It indeed is what you want to see it is. It's different from one person to another. That's really cool and that is how it should be. Problem I have is when some folks come back over to the Nation and decide somehow that we shouldn't be doing what we do or how we're doing it (make CBGs and CBG music).

Before I even start and before anyone gets a case of the ass here, NO ONE should do ANYTHING they don't want to do here in the Nation -- no matter what. You don't have to build anything, you don't have to chat, you don't have to post messages or reply to them, you don't have to log on even once. Nothing. Come and go, log on or not, hang out, grab plans, steal ideas, post your Viagra and Cialis ads, listen to music, post a manifesto... whatever. It's an Internet based community. Shane holds the keys and has had need on many occasions to use them to 'lock the doors'. It's a free online community.

What irritates me is, as stated above, former/current member(s) taking time to make it criticize the Nation and its members as a whole.

As an example, I wish I had a copy of the chat that someone posted this morning. It read like [the members of the Nation] are producing crappy CBGs just to sucker eBay buyers into buying bad instruments and that we have 'no ear for tone'. That comment set me off. Where the Hell did that comment originate from and why did they feel the need to get onto our chat and pass that comment? This was someone who had been associated with the Cigar Box Nation since the Yahoo Groups day (before my time) and should know damn well that. Gee, most new people here now might have been them those years ago or they might have helped someone new then or are STILL helping someone new. This guy is a well known, well respected person too. That's what kills me. The 'poster boy' for CBGs. Here's one excerpt that kills me: 'I would rather take up knitting than pursue the deadend work that is taking over [the Nation]. No Imagination .'

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So if you got this far, you might have seen instances like this or experienced this type of behavior or you might be some of the ones posting negative comments. You might agree or disagree. Whatever, you see a point here.

Ya'll here's where I stand and let me reflect back to the message from Sam: The Nation is what you make of it. Not what I make of it. Not what someone on chat makes of it. Not someone of name makes of it. And if you want to make something good of it, do so. Negativity like above is not a solution, it's a problem. A problem for anyone who sees and reads negative crap like above and it's a problem for the person who post this junk.

Am I taking it personal? Yeah in a way I am. Not for the sake of the Nation and its members but because [in the context of the post regarding us a making crappy instruments and selling on eBay] it was personal. The audacity of saying we collectively as a group of home built instrument makers are doing something they think is bad. Say 'I think the site is getting way to focused on promoting bad builds' or 'is too focused on selling to other members' or 'is too focused on playing gigs in their own town' or 'the Nation is not chatting actively'. Something concrete like that, but to generalize that all of the members as shit builders. Now it's personal and shameful on their part.

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Here's what I'm saying now, I've said it in chat and I'll say it here: If you don't like the way [the Nation] is running or being run, move on or make things better. Don't piss in our cornflakes just because you can or you think you're 'somebody'.

-WY
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Sometimes you do find gold!

Well, It is safe to say I have the CBG bug something bad! CBG's have been on the mind for many many years. Now that the first one is out of the way, I have many ideas for more to come! I was asked to make a simple one for a friends mother for her birthday. Who am I to say no to that!!!!!!!??????!!!!!!!

I also have a 17 1/2" Edge box that I have had for some time now that I am still unsure in what direction to go with it! 6 string? 4 string? Who knows at this time!


I do have plans to build another CNG for me of my own design. Well, it may not be all my design, but it will be a little different to be sure! Something "me"!

I am so glad I found this site, I have had a blast making my CBG, and finding this site just befor it was done was a great find for me! All the info here, all the great folks, mot to mention I LOVE to talk shop.

I would still like to find CBG builders/players here in AZ. Maybe join a group, or start one that meets once a week to play and build. that would be AWESOME!

Thanks to all the kind words and advice I have received so far! I can't wait to meet more of you!

Keep it going folks,

Chris!
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Ideas to unleash the potential of Open Tunings:

1) Watch the whole video through from beginning to end, like a TV show without your guitar. Doing this will help you see the "Big Picture" and you will have a clearer understanding of the approach to playing in open tunings. Mind over Matter. Get the directions first, then walk out the door!

2) Work through the lessons. Although not essential, it might be helpful to take each lesson in the order they are presented, but don't feel you need to master a lesson before moving on to the next lesson. Gain some proficiency, and then move on to the next lesson. Return to the earlier lessons at a later time to get what you have missed. Your playing skills will be better, so your ability to learn will be stronger. Revisiting material is key.

3) Explore the Fingerboard. Start by locating all the first tones on the fingerboard. Then find ways to travel between them using the major scale. Create a fingerboard reference system with the major scale. Find the three basic chords (one, four and five) Find all three inversions. Discover how chords and scales fit together.

4) Experiment. Don't limit your learning experience to just learning what is on the video, but use the material to create variations or make up your own arrangements. Use your ears to guide you. Step outside the box. Don't be afraid to make mistakes and sound bad, if it helps you expand and get better.

5) Research the versatility of Open Tunings. Here are some ideas: Notice the guitar is tuned to a chord (D, G or C). What three notes are used to make up this major chord? What is the interval relationship between the strings? Is there a relationship between different open tunings? How do I move musical ideas from one tuning to another? Can I alter the basic major chord tunings to make minor chord tunings? Research the use of Open G tuning in Hawaiian Slack Key guitar and Banjo playing.

6) Take a song you can play in standard tuning and try to arrange it in Opening Tuning using the same key. This is the BEST exercise for exploring and understanding the fingerboard of an open tuned guitar. As you arrange, search for note, doublestop and chord locations that make your arrangement not only sound good, but physically finger easily. If you think open tunings are limited, it is all in your head and your mind's limitation of knowledge. It is not the note arrangement on the fingerboard. It is all there for the taking. You just got to find it.

7) Be Patient and Disciplined. Don't expect to get everything in just one sitting. Trying to force learning never works. Try to practice consistently for shorter periods, than erratically for longer periods. Once in a while devote a larger block of time to focus on one subject. Woodshed! Hide in your basement or backporch so no one can hear you. Emerge like you discovered the secret of the universe!

8) Learn whole songs and video tape or record your performances. Don't waste all your time noodling around on the guitar and getting nothing done. Regardless of your skill level, try to learn complete songs up to a performance quality. Intro, verses, solo,etc. (Sing! It will improve your ability to match the notes in your head with the ones on the fingerboard - ear training). Then video tape or record the songs to be able to view your progress over time. When playing songs, play through your mistakes. Don't stop and start over again. Pretend you are always performing in front of an audience and you can't stop. The show MUST go on. Practice your corrections later.

9) Realize drugs and alcohol will not make you a better player. Take care of yourself, no one else will.

10) Play the guitar, Don't work the guitar. Most of all, have FUN. Understand like everything in life, anything worth having, takes work to achieve. If you can enjoy your work, you will never work a day in your life. If your practice begins to frustrate you, put the guitar to bed and try again tomorrow. Just keep coming back.

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2nd build done!

Found an excuse to do a second build! Giving this one as a gift to a friend. Decided to build it the same as the first since that one worked out so well so I wanted to make sure that the gift would work out well. The experiments and dodgy craftsmanship I keep for myself. This one is built just about exactly like the first except it's a bit sturdier. With the first one, remove one screw and the whole thing will literally fall apart. This one, the lid is glued to the neck and then secured to the box with a screw in each corner into corner blocks glued in the box. And this one has Martin strings on it rather than the 1stAct strings from WallyWorld.

And I know don't if that's the reason, but this one is louder and has a much brighter tone. All I know is that I'll be doing a bit of fine tuning on #1 and changing strings soon to see if it makes a difference.

Decided to try the guitar pick inlay on the fretboard with this and that worked out really nice. And just for grins and giggles I used some spent small pistol primers for side markers on the neck. I think I'll be dolling up #1 with all this too.

Now, onto build #3. Thinking about doing something with a mag pickup, maybe try to make one myself. Might try my hand at a fretted one this time too. Scarfed head? Hmmm...decisions, decisions...what a wonderful dilema to have!
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