Hi Guys!
I'm new here to the Chapel, but I think it's a great idea!
I want to invite you men to the IRON 8 blog site created by my friend and fellow motion picture professional C.J. POWERS. It's at
http://iron8.blogspot.com/
I myself an featured in an article there entitled "Destined to Sin?" and would love to begin a discussion about the message of that article, how coming to that place has changed my life and what you all think about what I wrote about with regards to your own lives.
Check it out. "Destined to Sin?" at http://iron8.blogspot.com/
Looking forward to getting your responses!
- Kevin
You need to be a member of Cigar Box Nation to add comments!
I find myself a little saddened by the fact that so many genuine believers have a view of God and Christ's work that limits it to only protecting us from condemnation because of sin (fire insurance), instead of realizing that the Holy Spirit, the same mighty power that raised Christ from the dead and resides now in us, also gives us not mere a desire to live sinless but the ABILITY to do so. As to your question, I look at it this way: We used to sin because we wee norn into sin. However, once we surrender ourselves to Christ in this life, not oply are our past sin covered, but we are given a new nature. We become new creatures or "new creations". The old nature has passed away. It's dead and no longer controls us.
To me, that's fantastic news! To be free from sin! To be free NOT to sin! That very reality, just as does the fact of my salvation, causes me to weep for joy! I can choose not to sin because of Christ in me enabling me not to sin !!! When I finally got it and changed my thinking to this, my whole life changed. My intimacy with the Lord grew in incredible ways. Scripture, which seemed disjointed my whole life, suddenly became clear as a continuum, I discovered early on that when I did knowingly sin, it was because I chose to, not because I couldn't help myself, ad thus cause me to think, "If I love God, why would I choose to sin against Him when I have the choice to do so or not?" I simply decided to do what my new nature dictates. No more excuses. No more "Please be patient with me, God's not finished with me yet" which most people use as an excuse to being responsible for one's wrongdoing.
I don't come to these conclusions out of ignorance, because the Scriptures are clear, not arrogance, because it only by God's grace that I can say ANY of this. But I recognize the whole package, and it's glorious!
Wichita Sam said:
You can't know how hard it has been for the chaplain to stay out of this discussion... it demonstrates one of the great divides in Christianity.... It might be summed up in this question:
"Do we sin because we are sinners.... or are we sinners because we have sinned?"
Your answer to this question will depend on your view of the Human Condition and your theology of the "image of God" in which humanity was/is formed....
On one end of the spectrum of theology of the Human Condition in the "utter depravity" of humanity articulated in Calvanism... on the other end is the triumphal humanism of the late 19th and early 20th century were mainstream Christianity expressed the belief that faithful Christians would "usher in the second coming" by "creating with our own hands" a new Eden on earth.
Regarding the "image of God".. a pessimistic view is that the "image of God" was destroyed in the fall... on the other end is an optimistic view that while the 'image of God" is marred by the fall it is durable and may well be that part of humanity which responds to the call of God...
Blessings as we all struggle with these important ideas,
You can't know how hard it has been for the chaplain to stay out of this discussion... it demonstrates one of the great divides in Christianity.... It might be summed up in this question:
"Do we sin because we are sinners.... or are we sinners because we have sinned?"
Your answer to this question will depend on your view of the Human Condition and your theology of the "image of God" in which humanity was/is formed....
On one end of the spectrum of theology of the Human Condition in the "utter depravity" of humanity articulated in Calvanism... on the other end is the triumphal humanism of the late 19th and early 20th century were mainstream Christianity expressed the belief that faithful Christians would "usher in the second coming" by "creating with our own hands" a new Eden on earth.
Regarding the "image of God".. a pessimistic view is that the "image of God" was destroyed in the fall... on the other end is an optimistic view that while the 'image of God" is marred by the fall it is durable and may well be that part of humanity which responds to the call of God...
Blessings as we all struggle with these important ideas,
Thanks, Shane. We're all screw-ups. At least we sure start out that way. Christ changes us from screw-ups to overcomers. And you know what? I have learned that rather than, as you say, worrying about not sinning, I simply live as I know I ought to and let the Lord move through me. It isn't much of a struggle once you realize He has empowered you to do it. It's our new nature to not want to sin, to even be repelled by it as God is. The old nature is DEAD! Problem is, too many believers are still being influenced by the memories of the Dead Man.
The things I wrote about are right from scripture. It's interesting how many bristle against it, when it's what the whole message of the gospel is about. It isn't about be bound up with fear of sinning, but of being free NOT to sin anymore--that's the true freedom the Christ provides for us, Praise God! And the power and the assurance and the intimacy with the Lord that has resulted in my life, since coming to this understanding is nearly indescribable. But it's reality, and it isn't meant to be subjective. It is provided to all believers.
Shane Speal said:
I'm the biggest screw-up you ever met. But I live in Grace. There's nothing I could ever do to win over the legal contract of salvation. I screw up all the time.
Instead of spending my days struggling to NOT sin, I instead focus on just doing God's will for my life. I stumble, fumble, fall, make some of the stupidest & most asinine mistakes possible in the the process. You oughtta see me...I'm a mess. It's almost comical in a 3 Stooges sorta way.
But I live in Grace. God knows I'm a fuckup. Yet, in his divine humor, he chose me to do a specialized job that only an expert could perform. I'm not an expert, just a fuckup. But I live in Grace. If I spend a bit of my day talking to him, he gives me a plan to go forth.
Am I destined to sin? Ha! If you knew Shane Speal, you'd know the obvious answer. Am I destined for Glory? Thru Grace I am.
Just a dirty tramp who was invited to a really big wedding...
shane
I mean to assume nothing about your relationship with sin, Mortimer. I only know what you've written. Grace, yes, it's how we all live, the very first thing provided to us through Christ. That's wonderful. But there's so much more besides that. It's easy to remember that we live under grace. Indeed, it is by grace that we can live at all, let alone live as Christ demands. But it's too easy to forget the power this is afforded us as well to live sinless lives. I know this to be true personally, and it's what the scriptures clearly teach. It's just that too many have gotten away from that teaching and concentrated alone of the grace issue, not enough on the power aspect.
- Kevin
Mortimer Snerd said:
You are perfectly welcome to live under the shackles of sin Jesus freed us from, like the prisoner who has become institutionalized or the slave who has become so used to his bonds that he is comfortable I them, if you wish. But why you would want to is beyond me.
I know you don't know me Kevin, but you are interjecting that I am still a slave, and that I struggle being a Christian when you are the furthest away from the truth. I live under Grace, it is sufficient for me, and I live in the post cross world under the new covenant, thats enough for me. I am free of the guilt that Church so freely hands out to it's members. Now I shake the dust off my shoes here, never to return Love, Mort.
I'm the biggest screw-up you ever met. But I live in Grace. There's nothing I could ever do to win over the legal contract of salvation. I screw up all the time.
Instead of spending my days struggling to NOT sin, I instead focus on just doing God's will for my life. I stumble, fumble, fall, make some of the stupidest & most asinine mistakes possible in the the process. You oughtta see me...I'm a mess. It's almost comical in a 3 Stooges sorta way.
But I live in Grace. God knows I'm a fuckup. Yet, in his divine humor, he chose me to do a specialized job that only an expert could perform. I'm not an expert, just a fuckup. But I live in Grace. If I spend a bit of my day talking to him, he gives me a plan to go forth.
Am I destined to sin? Ha! If you knew Shane Speal, you'd know the obvious answer. Am I destined for Glory? Thru Grace I am.
Just a dirty tramp who was invited to a really big wedding...
shane
You are perfectly welcome to live under the shackles of sin Jesus freed us from, like the prisoner who has become institutionalized or the slave who has become so used to his bonds that he is comfortable I them, if you wish. But why you would want to is beyond me.
I know you don't know me Kevin, but you are interjecting that I am still a slave, and that I struggle being a Christian when you are the furthest away from the truth. I live under Grace, it is sufficient for me, and I live in the post cross world under the new covenant, thats enough for me. I am free of the guilt that Church so freely hands out to it's members. Now I shake the dust off my shoes here, never to return Love, Mort.
"He told you to be sinless as he is sinless, then he turns around and pays for your sins, now why did Jesus do that? Because he KNEW that you could not be sinless." Mortimer, you made my point! I think I said that very thing in so many words. Yes, Jesus knew we couldn't be sinless in and of ourselves. He died, again, to free us from the curse of sin and its control over us. And to, by the induction of the Holy Spirit, enable us to not sin, even to be as repulsed as God is by it! And I don't ascribe to a "performance-based" style of salvation. I believe the whole truth of the gospel which tell me, among other things, I don't have to sin anymore, nor should I. I should live as Christ did. You also make a point I keep beating and it's "Try all you want, but your next sin, will not be by accident..." You're right. Believers who sin do so not because they lack the power not to, but because they DECIDE(!!!) to. And by the way, your presumption that I WILL sin is ill-advised. You are perfectly welcome to live under the shackles of sin Jesus freed us from, like the prisoner who has become institutionalized or the slave who has become so used to his bonds that he is comfortable I them, if you wish. But why you would want to is beyond me. I enjoy the freedom and power that is mine because of Jesus alone. You, my friend, have listened to the "we really haven't been freed from sin" gospel that's hamstringed believers for centuries, robbing them of the fullness of God's indwelling. It is my hope that instead of accepting the presupposition that we can only be protected from the sin which shouldn't be still does beset us (???), you will realize that your freedom from sin is more encompassing than you know and within your grasp because of what Jesus has done.
Thanks again for your input.
Mortimer Snerd said:
I believe and observe that the "We're always going to sin, even on our best day" is both a cop-out and a self-defeating idea that too many believers share, and is the biggest lie the devil has been able to maintain among believers.
No cop out, it's the truth. It's no lie. You have listened to the pulpit of the "performance based" style of salvation to long. Christ said allot of things he knew no one could do or keep, such as to the woman, go and sin no more, and to the pharisees, pointing out their flaws was easy, as everyone born had those flaws. He told you to be sinless as he is sinless, then he turns around and pays for your sins, now why did Jesus do that? Because he KNEW that you could not be sinless. Try all you want, but your next sin, will not be by accident, I'll bet my paycheck on it. Love, Mort.
I believe and observe that the "We're always going to sin, even on our best day" is both a cop-out and a self-defeating idea that too many believers share, and is the biggest lie the devil has been able to maintain among believers.
No cop out, it's the truth. It's no lie. You have listened to the pulpit of the "performance based" style of salvation to long. Christ said allot of things he knew no one could do or keep, such as to the woman, go and sin no more, and to the pharisees, pointing out their flaws was easy, as everyone born had those flaws. He told you to be sinless as he is sinless, then he turns around and pays for your sins, now why did Jesus do that? Because he KNEW that you could not be sinless. Try all you want, but your next sin, will not be by accident, I'll bet my paycheck on it. Love, Mort.
I agree with some of what you said, but at the same time find other things said rather contradictory. I believe and observe that the "We're always going to sin, even on our best day" is both a cop-out and a self-defeating idea that too many believers share, and is the biggest lie the devil has been able to maintain among believers. The plain and clear message of the gospel is freedom from not only the curse of sin, but the ability through his Holy Spirit to live AS THE LORD DEMANDS OF BELIEVERS, which is to live sinless, where the very thing that was natural to us from conception, has been usurped by the all-changing, power of God, whereby we become "new creations". Sin no longer has a hold upon us and sin doesn't even appeal to us anymore. What God hates, we hate. We live in His power to be sinless--not through our own power, but again HIS!
Do you think God would demand we live in a way He would equip us to, dooming us to constant failure? It reminds me of the abstinence debate, where people say, "Kids should indeed abstain totally from sexual activity...but since they probably won't lets give them condoms." What did that person just do? He totally undermined the ideal, assuming and even in some cases assuring failure.
To say, "We'll always sin, but thank God for his forgiveness." is the same thing.
I live in the reality from which I wrote. I have simply fully implemented in my life, the very truths I've found in the gospel. "What, are you saying you don't sin?" Well, I think I've answered that question. What I have also found, early on in my "experiment" with this, is that if I take the "I'm doomed to sin regardless" attitude...I always did. And then I'd have to start all over again.
I thank you for your honest and thoughtful response!
Mortimer Snerd said:
Now I don't plan on stiring the pot and being part of a 30 page debate here, this is just an observation that I have learned, and I didnt learn it at Church, only after I had left the Church, after 40 years of my 50 year life.
I don't believe in accidental sin, or sin mistakes as I once believed. I now know that sinning is a flaw built in at the factory, it is what we do. Now sinning willingly, as in murder and living to make others lives hell, is another dog of a different color. But on our best Christian day, we are going to sin, even if it is a tiny macro sin, but it certainly is not accidental. We can council an ape the the zoo, take him aside and tell him that scratching his arm pit is a sin, swinging from trees is a sin, eating a banana is a sin, but that ape is going to do, what an ape does. No amount of Church, Bible reading, infilling of the Holy Spirit, prayer, is going to knock our sin inclinations out. It ain't going to happen, God knows this, actually, he took care of this for us at the cross along time ago. The sooner we believe that our sin has been dealt with already, we wont have to worry about being human. Living under Grace, is easer then living under law, why we put ourselves under the law when Jesus took it away at the cross, only comes from the pulpet.
Now I don't plan on stiring the pot and being part of a 30 page debate here, this is just an observation that I have learned, and I didnt learn it at Church, only after I had left the Church, after 40 years of my 50 year life.
I don't believe in accidental sin, or sin mistakes as I once believed. I now know that sinning is a flaw built in at the factory, it is what we do. Now sinning willingly, as in murder and living to make others lives hell, is another dog of a different color. But on our best Christian day, we are going to sin, even if it is a tiny macro sin, but it certainly is not accidental. We can council an ape the the zoo, take him aside and tell him that scratching his arm pit is a sin, swinging from trees is a sin, eating a banana is a sin, but that ape is going to do, what an ape does. No amount of Church, Bible reading, infilling of the Holy Spirit, prayer, is going to knock our sin inclinations out. It ain't going to happen, God knows this, actually, he took care of this for us at the cross along time ago. The sooner we believe that our sin has been dealt with already, we wont have to worry about being human. Living under Grace, is easer then living under law, why we put ourselves under the law when Jesus took it away at the cross, only comes from the pulpet.
Replies
I find myself a little saddened by the fact that so many genuine believers have a view of God and Christ's work that limits it to only protecting us from condemnation because of sin (fire insurance), instead of realizing that the Holy Spirit, the same mighty power that raised Christ from the dead and resides now in us, also gives us not mere a desire to live sinless but the ABILITY to do so. As to your question, I look at it this way: We used to sin because we wee norn into sin. However, once we surrender ourselves to Christ in this life, not oply are our past sin covered, but we are given a new nature. We become new creatures or "new creations". The old nature has passed away. It's dead and no longer controls us.
To me, that's fantastic news! To be free from sin! To be free NOT to sin! That very reality, just as does the fact of my salvation, causes me to weep for joy! I can choose not to sin because of Christ in me enabling me not to sin !!! When I finally got it and changed my thinking to this, my whole life changed. My intimacy with the Lord grew in incredible ways. Scripture, which seemed disjointed my whole life, suddenly became clear as a continuum, I discovered early on that when I did knowingly sin, it was because I chose to, not because I couldn't help myself, ad thus cause me to think, "If I love God, why would I choose to sin against Him when I have the choice to do so or not?" I simply decided to do what my new nature dictates. No more excuses. No more "Please be patient with me, God's not finished with me yet" which most people use as an excuse to being responsible for one's wrongdoing.
I don't come to these conclusions out of ignorance, because the Scriptures are clear, not arrogance, because it only by God's grace that I can say ANY of this. But I recognize the whole package, and it's glorious!
Wichita Sam said:
"Do we sin because we are sinners.... or are we sinners because we have sinned?"
Your answer to this question will depend on your view of the Human Condition and your theology of the "image of God" in which humanity was/is formed....
On one end of the spectrum of theology of the Human Condition in the "utter depravity" of humanity articulated in Calvanism... on the other end is the triumphal humanism of the late 19th and early 20th century were mainstream Christianity expressed the belief that faithful Christians would "usher in the second coming" by "creating with our own hands" a new Eden on earth.
Regarding the "image of God".. a pessimistic view is that the "image of God" was destroyed in the fall... on the other end is an optimistic view that while the 'image of God" is marred by the fall it is durable and may well be that part of humanity which responds to the call of God...
Blessings as we all struggle with these important ideas,
Wichita Sam,
Chaplain
The things I wrote about are right from scripture. It's interesting how many bristle against it, when it's what the whole message of the gospel is about. It isn't about be bound up with fear of sinning, but of being free NOT to sin anymore--that's the true freedom the Christ provides for us, Praise God! And the power and the assurance and the intimacy with the Lord that has resulted in my life, since coming to this understanding is nearly indescribable. But it's reality, and it isn't meant to be subjective. It is provided to all believers.
Shane Speal said:
- Kevin
Mortimer Snerd said:
Instead of spending my days struggling to NOT sin, I instead focus on just doing God's will for my life. I stumble, fumble, fall, make some of the stupidest & most asinine mistakes possible in the the process. You oughtta see me...I'm a mess. It's almost comical in a 3 Stooges sorta way.
But I live in Grace. God knows I'm a fuckup. Yet, in his divine humor, he chose me to do a specialized job that only an expert could perform. I'm not an expert, just a fuckup. But I live in Grace. If I spend a bit of my day talking to him, he gives me a plan to go forth.
Am I destined to sin? Ha! If you knew Shane Speal, you'd know the obvious answer. Am I destined for Glory? Thru Grace I am.
Just a dirty tramp who was invited to a really big wedding...
shane
I know you don't know me Kevin, but you are interjecting that I am still a slave, and that I struggle being a Christian when you are the furthest away from the truth. I live under Grace, it is sufficient for me, and I live in the post cross world under the new covenant, thats enough for me. I am free of the guilt that Church so freely hands out to it's members. Now I shake the dust off my shoes here, never to return Love, Mort.
Thanks again for your input.
Mortimer Snerd said:
No cop out, it's the truth. It's no lie. You have listened to the pulpit of the "performance based" style of salvation to long. Christ said allot of things he knew no one could do or keep, such as to the woman, go and sin no more, and to the pharisees, pointing out their flaws was easy, as everyone born had those flaws. He told you to be sinless as he is sinless, then he turns around and pays for your sins, now why did Jesus do that? Because he KNEW that you could not be sinless. Try all you want, but your next sin, will not be by accident, I'll bet my paycheck on it. Love, Mort.
Do you think God would demand we live in a way He would equip us to, dooming us to constant failure? It reminds me of the abstinence debate, where people say, "Kids should indeed abstain totally from sexual activity...but since they probably won't lets give them condoms." What did that person just do? He totally undermined the ideal, assuming and even in some cases assuring failure.
To say, "We'll always sin, but thank God for his forgiveness." is the same thing.
I live in the reality from which I wrote. I have simply fully implemented in my life, the very truths I've found in the gospel. "What, are you saying you don't sin?" Well, I think I've answered that question. What I have also found, early on in my "experiment" with this, is that if I take the "I'm doomed to sin regardless" attitude...I always did. And then I'd have to start all over again.
I thank you for your honest and thoughtful response!
Mortimer Snerd said:
I don't believe in accidental sin, or sin mistakes as I once believed. I now know that sinning is a flaw built in at the factory, it is what we do. Now sinning willingly, as in murder and living to make others lives hell, is another dog of a different color. But on our best Christian day, we are going to sin, even if it is a tiny macro sin, but it certainly is not accidental. We can council an ape the the zoo, take him aside and tell him that scratching his arm pit is a sin, swinging from trees is a sin, eating a banana is a sin, but that ape is going to do, what an ape does. No amount of Church, Bible reading, infilling of the Holy Spirit, prayer, is going to knock our sin inclinations out. It ain't going to happen, God knows this, actually, he took care of this for us at the cross along time ago. The sooner we believe that our sin has been dealt with already, we wont have to worry about being human. Living under Grace, is easer then living under law, why we put ourselves under the law when Jesus took it away at the cross, only comes from the pulpet.
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