Scale length - so many choices

Posted by Roadkill a.k.a. John Maw on December 27, 2010 at 3:52pm

Hi. I am about to start my second, third and fourth instruments. They will be fretted (a three string, a four string and a strummer), unlike my first. I am a novice player and so have not got used to anything except the first guitar.

 

The issue of scale length comes up quite a bit. What I can't find is an overall reason to pick any particular length unless the player is accustomed to one due to playing another guitar. I think that I understand that with the same gauge strings and tuning a longer neck means more tension (please put me right if I have this backwards), but are there any advantages in one length over another?

 

Everyone out there in CBG land who has built an instrument has had to decide on a length. My question is why did you choose what you chose? Thanks.

 

PS. Lets assume that I am talking about a fairly standard instrument with usual tuning.

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Replies

  • Roadkill a.k.a. John Maw December 30, 2010 at 5:31pm
    Thanks to everyone for the information. The general tendency seems to favour the shorter scale if I read the replies correctly. The CBG mantra of "no rules" keeps coming to mind. Fine for the experienced makers but a bit unnerving for people like me. I guess there's no substitute for gaining the experience. Thanks again.
  • Julz aka Varnum Slim December 30, 2010 at 1:20am
    Here's a situation I came across today regarding scale length. Jr. Kimbrough's "Meet Me In the City" has a shuffle part where one finger holds a string at the 1st fret and the other at the 3rd fret then takes the 3rd fret finger to the 5th while keeping the 1st fret finger where it was. Look up the tab and you'll see what I mean. It's common for the Delta Shuffle and one hell of a stretch. Novice players like myself will be in pain in short order. Perfect example of shorter scale length being preferable. You want to be able to reach the notes without straining or you'll never get thorough a whole set. 

    John H. Maw said:
    Thanks Matt. Quite a range to choose from. Sometimes difficult for the new maker (particularly those without playing experience) to know where to start.

    Artist Formerly Known as Matt said:

    Well, just for me ... I build and sell.

    Longscale for me is 27.5". A kinda average for dulcimers.

    Short, 19" - much smaller and the frets start getting cramped for me.

    Regular, 25.5"- Gibson ..... 'nuf said! But I do feel it is a good playable "common" size.

     

    Mandos and Ukes are pretty much in the middle of what you'll find as a range ... I guess thats also true for the 25.5" scalew I use.

     

    AFKAM

  • Mike Bingham December 29, 2010 at 9:45pm
    You know that's a really good question.  I was initially concerned about it since all of my builds are fretless and I play them with a slide. I've noticed that I can switch back and forth pretty easily and really think that it would be even easier on fretted instruments.  If you get addicted to this stuff (like I and many other members here have - lol) it might be worthwhile to build some of each just for the tonal differences.  You probably won't have any trouble selling your "mistakes" if you aren't happy with a particular build.  Here I go again prattling on...

    John H. Maw said:

    Hi Mike.

     

    Thanks for the response and I'm sure it's worth much more than two cents ;)

     

    One question arises. From a players point of view is it better to standardise on one scale length? Does switching between instruments of differing scale lengths cause any problems?

     

    Thanks again.

     

    John


    Mike Bingham said:

    Hey John - here's my two cents worth.  I've built two cigar box guitars with a 24.75" scale.  On these I put the pickup in the "neck" position.  They sound really mellow and warm.  I built three more with 25.5" scale lengths and put the pickups in the bridge position.  They sound very clean and bright, more like Telecasters and Stratocasters than the others I built.  One thing I can't explain is that I have a much cleaner and defined sound when playing 12th fret notes on the 25.5 inch scale guitars whether they are plugged into the amp or played acoustic.  My next builds will definitely be 25.5" versions and I'm strongly thinking about putting pickups in the neck AND bridge positions.  You are correct about the string tension, but I honestly can't tell that much difference since it's really only 3/4" difference.Some songs soung better when played on the short scale and others sound noticeably better on the longer scale guitars. Sorry for the long answer but I'm a freak when it comes to building these things and just hope the info helps.  See you around the Nation!
  • Roadkill a.k.a. John Maw December 29, 2010 at 9:26pm

    Hi Mike.

     

    Thanks for the response and I'm sure it's worth much more than two cents ;)

     

    One question arises. From a players point of view is it better to standardise on one scale length? Does switching between instruments of differing scale lengths cause any problems?

     

    Thanks again.

     

    John


    Mike Bingham said:

    Hey John - here's my two cents worth.  I've built two cigar box guitars with a 24.75" scale.  On these I put the pickup in the "neck" position.  They sound really mellow and warm.  I built three more with 25.5" scale lengths and put the pickups in the bridge position.  They sound very clean and bright, more like Telecasters and Stratocasters than the others I built.  One thing I can't explain is that I have a much cleaner and defined sound when playing 12th fret notes on the 25.5 inch scale guitars whether they are plugged into the amp or played acoustic.  My next builds will definitely be 25.5" versions and I'm strongly thinking about putting pickups in the neck AND bridge positions.  You are correct about the string tension, but I honestly can't tell that much difference since it's really only 3/4" difference.Some songs soung better when played on the short scale and others sound noticeably better on the longer scale guitars. Sorry for the long answer but I'm a freak when it comes to building these things and just hope the info helps.  See you around the Nation!
  • Mike Bingham December 29, 2010 at 9:21pm
    Hey John - here's my two cents worth.  I've built two cigar box guitars with a 24.75" scale.  On these I put the pickup in the "neck" position.  They sound really mellow and warm.  I built three more with 25.5" scale lengths and put the pickups in the bridge position.  They sound very clean and bright, more like Telecasters and Stratocasters than the others I built.  One thing I can't explain is that I have a much cleaner and defined sound when playing 12th fret notes on the 25.5 inch scale guitars whether they are plugged into the amp or played acoustic.  My next builds will definitely be 25.5" versions and I'm strongly thinking about putting pickups in the neck AND bridge positions.  You are correct about the string tension, but I honestly can't tell that much difference since it's really only 3/4" difference.Some songs soung better when played on the short scale and others sound noticeably better on the longer scale guitars. Sorry for the long answer but I'm a freak when it comes to building these things and just hope the info helps.  See you around the Nation!
  • Roadkill a.k.a. John Maw December 29, 2010 at 8:42pm
    Thanks Matt. Quite a range to choose from. Sometimes difficult for the new maker (particularly those without playing experience) to know where to start.

    Artist Formerly Known as Matt said:

    Well, just for me ... I build and sell.

    Longscale for me is 27.5". A kinda average for dulcimers.

    Short, 19" - much smaller and the frets start getting cramped for me.

    Regular, 25.5"- Gibson ..... 'nuf said! But I do feel it is a good playable "common" size.

     

    Mandos and Ukes are pretty much in the middle of what you'll find as a range ... I guess thats also true for the 25.5" scalew I use.

     

    AFKAM

  • Outhouse Instruments December 28, 2010 at 9:23pm

    Well, just for me ... I build and sell.

    Longscale for me is 27.5". A kinda average for dulcimers.

    Short, 19" - much smaller and the frets start getting cramped for me.

    Regular, 25.5"- Gibson ..... 'nuf said! But I do feel it is a good playable "common" size.

     

    Mandos and Ukes are pretty much in the middle of what you'll find as a range ... I guess thats also true for the 25.5" scalew I use.

     

    AFKAM

  • Diane in Chicago December 28, 2010 at 5:30pm

    That is not a stupid question!  I am a clumsy, novice, weekend player, so I like the low fretwire.  If you bear down hard on the strings, they don't go too sharp because the frets are low and don't stretch the strings that much.  So that's one reason I like them - I can control my intonation better.  Also, they look appropriate on the itty bitty instruments I build.

     

    Real wizard players sometimes like the jumbo frets for precisely the reason I don't.  A feather light touch can fret the string, but you also have plenty of room for bending your notes however you like.

     

    Better players than I will have to elaborate on this.  I'm a duffer.

     


    John H. Maw said:


    In what way does the different size of fret wire change how you play? What would you notice?

     

    Thanks for the help. I hope the questions are not too stupid.

  • Roadkill a.k.a. John Maw December 28, 2010 at 4:36pm


    Diane in Chicago said:

    That's some premium wood - lucky you!  Early on I made one of poplar that ended up with sky-high action as the neck warped and warped.  And it was a 24" or so. So that's the last time I did that, both the poplar and the 24".

     

    Yes. In fact a friend also gave me an "off-cut of mahogany that he was going to BURN because he hadn't used it in 15 years. It is 3" x 10" x 5'. Some off-cut! Heavy as anything.

     

    Because I build small, I use narrow/low fretwire. But that's me.  Can't go far wrong with medium/medium.  Gitty sells in small quantities so you can try different ones.

     

    In what way does the different size of fret wire change how you play? What would you notice?

     

    Thanks for the help. I hope the questions are not too stupid.

  • Diane in Chicago December 28, 2010 at 4:16pm

    That's some premium wood - lucky you!  Early on I made one of poplar that ended up with sky-high action as the neck warped and warped.  And it was a 24" or so. So that's the last time I did that, both the poplar and the 24".

     

    Because I build small, I use narrow/low fretwire. But that's me.  Can't go far wrong with medium/medium.  Gitty sells in small quantities so you can try different ones.

     

    As far as tone, each box has it's own special sound.  Lower notes are louder on bigger boxes, but if you are putting in a pickup you can use anything and still get good sound.  Of course you can tune any instrument any way you like by using a string gauge calculator and selecting the appropriate strings.

     

    I usually tune DAd, but just unearthed an older build I did that was tuned higher, to  AEa.  It really sings out, kind of like a banjo.  A friend with an electric instrument I built restrung it up with the three heaviest guitar strings, and that thing just wails.   So there is no real answer to tuning and tone, a lot is a matter of taste and preference.

     

     

    John H. Maw said:

    Thank you Diane and Sam.

     

    When I started the thread I thought it would probably be more a discussion of tone, but the main emphasis from everyone seems to be playability. Very interesting. On that basis the shorter scales seem to be the better option if I am reading the replied correctly.

     

    On the subject of ease of playing, does fret size (height, width) make any difference?

     

    Diane. You mentioned using good wood for the neck. I intended to use mahogany for the neck with ebony for the fret board. I am trying only to use old wood (recycled or offcuts) and I was given quite a bit of mahogany that is about 80 years old. The ebony is at least 30 years old. I assume that these woods are suitable.

     

    Thanks again for the help. Very much appreciated.

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