I have noticed people building CBGs with two set ups. One is where the fretboard is flush with the box lid and the other is like Mike Snowden's with the fret-board and part of the neck a distance above the box top. It looks like the fret board top may be about 3/8" above the box top. Can anyone confirm my thoughts or explain why the two set ups are different? My thought is that with the fret-board above the box top by that much or more would allow more adjustability for lowering the action. Is that true? I figured the set up with the fret-board level with box top would be more of a set up for slide guitar playing. Thanks for any information or advice.
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I now build all my CBGs with the fretboard 1/4" above the CB lid; this is true if the neck has a separate fretboard or not. I can achieve the same action in relation to the frets/fretboard regardless if raised or flush but the HUGE difference to me is the extra spacing for the picking hand if the FB is raised. Not only do I now always use a raised FB, but I also give the neck a bit of a back angle as I find it more comfortable.
Look at how little room there is for the picking hand with this flush fretboard CBG (my 2nd build I think):
Now look at all the room in this build with a raised FB (not a separate FB) and back angle:
And here's one with a separate FB and back angle:
Thanks for the fine photos and the information. I like the fixed bridge because it looks like the strings are closer to the fret board than the others. Is that due to the type bridge you are using and the back angle on the neck? How do you gauge the amount of back angle to use or do you just eye it? Also, if you measure it can you explain how? Thanks again.
These all have roughly the same action and I can get whatever action I want regardless of bridge design or if the FB is raised or not. It's all just a matter of adjusting bridge/nut height.
This pic shows how I build most all my CBGs now (click on pic as in-post view chops off some of it)
Starting with the neck, I've abandoned one piece necks as I found it way too time consuming to notch them. The two piece is so much faster to build (working time) as there is vastly less wood removal. Only the place where the box lid rests near the fretboard requires wood to be removed; everything else is either a 90* or 45* full cut. It does require about 4" more total wood length (section that is glued).
As for the box, I first mark the center lines and then glue in the vertical pieces of wood. I use the actual neck along with some 1x2 scraps to properly space them. These make life easier down the road as you never have to measure again as to where the neck goes. They also make notching the box for the neck super simply as you now have vertical guides for your saw. I then notch the box to the proper depth. I then take a 1x2 scrap and cut it so that it is flush with the bottom of the notch and glue it place. The neck pocket is now complete. If I DIDN'T want a neck angle I could cut another 1x2 the same length as the one in the neck pocket for the end of the neck. Since I do want a neck angle I'll need to cut one a bit longer so that the back end of the neck will be raised a bit. 1/8-1/4" higher usually works well and the amount depends on the length of the box. A short box you'll want closer to 1/8" and a really long box closer to 1/4". There's no need to be super concerned with the exact angle as you can always play with bridge height later on. I like to use threaded inserts/machine screws to attach my necks as I find myself assembling/disassembling them a good bid during the build and it just makes things easier FWIW, I've toyed with the idea of making one where I can adjust the neck angle on the fly by raising/lowering the back end of the neck (think micro-tilt Fender necks or older 80's Peavey necks).
Wow. That is just awesome Webster. You must have been doing this for a while. I sure like the way you do it. I think I will have to try to do one this way. I was just concerned because I bought a unit from a builder and The height was too high on the high end around the 12-17 frets running at 5mm, It appeared like the neck had developed a forward bow shortly after I got it. I wanted to lower the action to get the higher frets down to around 2.5-3mm and had to flatten the bridge bolt on one side which I was able to do. The strings may need to come up just a hair to relieve the buzzing in that area. I do have some fret buzz starting at the15th fret on most strings but first notable on the B string. Checked frets at this area with a straight rocker tool I made and the frets appear level but I noticed when the builder made it the frets are not rounded but flat in several areas. Just trying to improve it all I can and figured this would be good practice for when I do my first build. He used a super fret wire as the nut which works great with about 1mm string height at the first fret but with the bow at about the 7 fret I was up to 5mm string height at the 12 fret area which I did not like. I did not want to have to send it back so I have been working on it myself. I will attach a few photos to show you. I would also like to change the tail piece to allow better alignment of the strings and give me a little more space for muting. I appreciate your help. Thanks again.
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It looks like there's something fundamentally wrong with the way the neck is fixed into that guitar - the strings look a good 1/2 inch above the top of the box where they pass over the end of fretboard, yet the bolt bridge only looks like it's something like 1/4"? I've seen this before where the neck angle goes the wrong way and slopes down towards the top . You might be able to take out the neck and shim it, but combine this problem with a bowed neck and buzzing frets, you've got a fine wall hanger.
Thank you John. You opinion means a lot to me especially with all of your building experience. What is your recommendation of string high at the area you refer to above the box lid at the end of the fret board? Once I get the neck straight or buy a new neck would you recommend installing new mounting blocks in the box to give the neck a little downward angle by lifting the tail of the neck about 2-5mm so that I could have the strings higher at the tail end for a decent bridge height but before doing this shim the front of the neck first to get the fret board closer to the lid? Was not sure if you saw the bow picture so I will include it.100_2510.JPG Thanks for any help.
The bowing the neck is really too much. Leave the neck where it enters the box the same, that looks OK but you've got the right idea if the the neck is "diving" towards the tailpiece, then you can raise the packing block or shim up at the tail end of the neck stick. It's common to measure the action at the 12th fret, and player's tastes are so different, but I tend to shoot for 2-3mm which is quite high by regular guitar standards - with a neck that has a fair amount of bow to it, that may not be achievable. Doing this sort of correction and repair can be a real pain as it is often a case of "If that's where you are heading, I wouldn't start from here" sort of story. I've got one in my workshop right now, a dog bowl reso that has the fretboard set in pretty much level with the top of the box and no break angle to speak of over the bridge, and the neck is glued in, so that's a real stinker to try and improve.
Thank you very much John for your help. Before I start anything I am going to see what the builder's reply is. I sent him an email about it yesterday and will see if I get a reply by tomorrow. If not I will call him. I do not want to do anything if he wants me to send the whole thing back. From what I have found on the inside of the box to be honest I was shocked. It looks kind of hacked up if you know what I mean. All the cuts were very rough and was somewhat surprised to see all the electrical connections covered over with a hot glue gun. Is that normal? I never did that on any regular guitars I worked on.
The only semi logical reason I can come up with for gluing the electrical connections is to help with insulation, but even that makes no sense. Sorry to hear the problems you are having, but it appears you,ve been sold a dog, I,m reluctant, normally to criticise without more info, but that is really not good enough. Good luck getting it resolved
Almost all necks will have a small amount of forward bow due to the string tension. Necks should have a small amount of relief just like a normal guitar with a truss rod should. So far all of my builds have resulted in what I would consider proper relief (both 3 and 4 stringers). I try and only use 1x2's that are extremely straight but if there is a slight bow I make sure that I start with the curve UP with the knowledge that the string tension will straighten it out.
An action rise from ~1mm at the 1st to ~5mm at the 12th is pretty extreme. You are correct IMO to be shooting for 2.5-3mm at the 12th. FWIW 2 dimes stacked is 2.7mm and makes a good feeler gauge for action at the 12th.
Grinding down the bridge bolt is something I think most all of us have done at some point to lower the bridge.
As for the fretwork, it appears the builder did level the frets after installing them (hence the flat tops) but didn't bother to give them a proper re-crowning. I re-crown frets with a 3 corner file and here's a good example video of how easy it is to do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15-J7fePk1A
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