Hello from new member :)
I was wondering if aluminum frets could be an option or if they are going to wear too soon.
Anodization could be an improvement .
I leave to your imagination how an aluminum fret would look like ..
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The literature says "nickle treated frets." It had a little layer of nickle on top of each molded aluminum fret which helped, but they were still less durable than a full nickle fretwire. I don't think they were annodized at all. I remember re-spraying the fretboard before re-fretting it because the paint started wearing/chipping in places.
Kaman tried aluminum frets, cast as one piece with the fretboard and a "t" support under it. Then, the back of the neck was formed around it with foam and covered with plastic. The body was an ovation bowl with a plywood top.
The frets wore too quickly, even with topped with a layer of nickel. I had one of those guitars and the frets got dented so that they were unplayable. I filed them off, slotted it with a hacksaw and epoxied real frets in there.
I'm not sure what you mean by parquet, but if the wood comes in foot long strips, then I'd get some good carpenter's wood glue and build a neck out of them in the same way a brick mason would build a wall with overlapping bricks. The glue joints formed by any modern wood glue will be stronger than the wood itself, and overlapping the joints in a brick like manner would strengthen those joints even further. Generally speaking, laminating wood together to form a neck will always result in a stronger neck than if you build with a solid piece of wood alone. So, I'd go for it. Build it up two layers at a time, let dry and then add another layer. Repeat until you reach the dimensions you need for you neck. Be sure to use cut plastic grocery bags or wax paper between the wood you are gluing together and your work surface, and any wood you may be using to clamp things down (to avoid glue oozing out and gluing together things together that you didn't want to (been there, done that)). You will need clamps, at least one every 3 inches and a straight length of wood to put between the clamps and the wood your are gluing together to even out the pressure and avoid marring you work piece. This technique should hold you over until you can find better wood suppliers - and even then you might want to continue building laminated necks for strength and beauty (if you mix contrasting woods).
A few tips:
1.) When gluing up the strips of wood, look and the ends to see how the grain curves. For maximum strength, make sure the grain in one layer curves in the opposite direction as the next layer, repeating this though all the layers of your neck.
2.) When laminating a neck, position the boards so that they are lined up vertically on their edge. Lets assume you are working with alternating layers of black and white wood. If you orient them on edge, then as you look at your neck where the fretboard will be, you will see black and white stripes, and the sides of the neck should be a solid color. You will likely want to use an odd number of boards in this case so your sides of the neck will be the same color. If you are using the same color wood throughout, this additional odd numbered board won't matter. Orienting the board up on edge like this will better counter act the tension on the strings so the wood won't bend (warp) upward over time.
3.) If you are laminating a neck for the beauty of contrasting woods, you should be careful to choose woods that expand and contract with changes in humidity at similar rates. As I don't really know enough about woods to predict this, most my necks tend to be made of the same kind of wood, valuing strength over beauty.
4.) Be a bit conservative with the glue as it tends to ooze out and makes a mess of things once you clamp things together. I use wet wipes (clothier than tissues) to wipe up excess glue.
Again ,Italy is not well serviced . Better look for stuff on the web (ebay and such).
-check out the trim wood they have as well.-
Looking into parquet stuff I found some mahogany strips ,but they are like 1 foot long , not sure you can make a neck joining shorter peaces .
- real fret wire, and it's not as difficult to install as some people make it sound.-
..mh .
-Good luck with your builds...-
Thanks.
-single piece of nylon wrapped around for frets, no bridge or nut, just through-body indidvidual string ferrules. Hmmm. Much easier than an actual Fishbone Gittler. Hmm.-
Nice , the 3 bass strings look like being nylon made , are those available , as I've allways seen those made in metal ?
-HARD anodizing-
Yes ,it looks like a complicated procedure ,as a matter of facts I've not found any explanation of it on the web.
-some hazards in the occupational situation -
Try to google for nickel toxic guitar , that would suffice I guess.
- That build is covered by an article here in the intermediate builders group.-
I'll try to spot that one. Do you happen to have a url for that at hand ?
-this thread has me lost.-
.. sorry about that.I play now and then . Style , I would say ethnic . I am just trying to minimize skills requirement for an home built 'cookies' (I don't smoke) box guitar...I can start another thread : Cookie box guitar , is that what you want ?
Uncle John, you owe me a cup of coffee for the one I just blew out my nose. seriously. LOL!
Ok, again I wish to appologize, I wasnt making fun of anyone. I just find it funny how these discussions sometimes swing from one extreme to another.
Yes you can color anodize, but we were discussing HARD anodizing to make aluminum wear resistant. Thats a bit different, more complicated and either way, involves using acids and chemicals that make a little nickel exposure look pretty mild.
I am not sure why you are so interested in stainless fretwire, I have only seen it used in rare circumstances, and when I tried it once I found it so much more difficult to work with in the finishing stages I never used it again. Nickel exposures effects from playing guitar is a new one one me, I'll have to look into that. Yes it has some hazards in the occupational situation with constant exposure to dust or fumes from for instance grinding, welding and so forth.
You dont need any "exotic" wood.
Last winter as an experiment I built a perfectly playable 3 stringer out of a (aprox prices) $1 box, $5 poplar 1X4, and spent about $20 on tuners, fretwire and strings. A bridge and nut from some Corian samples and some time. That build is covered by an article here in the intermediate builders group.
My questions here going forward are what was never addressed to begin with:
One must assess his/her abilitys and skills, tools and equipment, and budget.
You need to determine what you want to build, primitive, beginner, advanced. From one string diddly bow to 12 strings and harps and beyond. I would recommend to anyone, to start with something that they feel is well within the "easy" range for them, because you WILL hit snags and things to learn along the way. Then you can re-assess what you want to do next. Starting out at a very difficult level only leads to frustration.
Assess what you want to end up with as a result. Do you play already? What style do you play, and how do you want your project to fit into that?
Gabrielle, you have described your self as a "newbie" but beyond that we have no idea what we are dealing with here. You started out with questions about a build concept far beyond even most of the super-advanced level builds here. Even Scott Winburn, (Who I use as an example because his builds are some of the more outragious, out of the box but yet somehow still functional I have ever seen.) He would likely look at the fishbone design and cringe a little. Big challenges there.
And this discussion long ago left the realm of discussing aluminum frets. I suggest we need to start a new discussion, back in the real world of helping this poster, and we can start by assesing what you really want to build. I'd like to help if I can, but to be honest this thread has me lost.
Did some qwuickie searching onthe Gittler, and found his 1995 model:
Single piece of wood plank, single piece of nylon wrapped around for frets, no bridge or nut, just through-body indidvidual string ferrules. Hmmm. Much easier than an actual Fishbone Gittler. Hmm.
Replies
A couple of links about hard anodizing ofaluminum:
Youtube: Hard Anodizing of Aluminum
Hard anodizing kit
Here are the guitars I'm talking about:
http://www.ovationtribute.com/Catalogues/70-s_Applause_US_Brochure/...
The literature says "nickle treated frets." It had a little layer of nickle on top of each molded aluminum fret which helped, but they were still less durable than a full nickle fretwire. I don't think they were annodized at all. I remember re-spraying the fretboard before re-fretting it because the paint started wearing/chipping in places.
Yeah, thanks. I think I might have several more after reading this thread! LOL!
-I'm not sure what you mean by parquet-solid wood flooring -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_flooring.I guess this sort of wood should carry all the required characteristics for a neck .
-http://www.cigarboxnation.com/group/intermediatebuildingtipsandtric...
Very interesting, congratulations for your skills . I kind of spotted a beer bottle in the trash (picture) , watch out for straight lines :) !
-Kaman tried aluminum frets-
I wonder what sort of anodyzing , if any , they adopted.
My idea:
Kaman tried aluminum frets, cast as one piece with the fretboard and a "t" support under it. Then, the back of the neck was formed around it with foam and covered with plastic. The body was an ovation bowl with a plywood top.
The frets wore too quickly, even with topped with a layer of nickel. I had one of those guitars and the frets got dented so that they were unplayable. I filed them off, slotted it with a hacksaw and epoxied real frets in there.
Gabrielle,
Review this for ideas, maybe some help in here.
http://www.cigarboxnation.com/group/intermediatebuildingtipsandtric...
I'm not sure what you mean by parquet , but if the wood comes in foot long strips, then I'd get some good carpenter's wood glue and build a neck out of them in the same way a brick mason would build a wall with overlapping bricks. The glue joints formed by any modern wood glue will be stronger than the wood itself, and overlapping the joints in a brick like manner would strengthen those joints even further. Generally speaking, laminating wood together to form a neck will always result in a stronger neck than if you build with a solid piece of wood alone. So, I'd go for it. Build it up two layers at a time, let dry and then add another layer. Repeat until you reach the dimensions you need for you neck. Be sure to use cut plastic grocery bags or wax paper between the wood you are gluing together and your work surface, and any wood you may be using to clamp things down (to avoid glue oozing out and gluing together things together that you didn't want to (been there, done that)). You will need clamps, at least one every 3 inches and a straight length of wood to put between the clamps and the wood your are gluing together to even out the pressure and avoid marring you work piece. This technique should hold you over until you can find better wood suppliers - and even then you might want to continue building laminated necks for strength and beauty (if you mix contrasting woods).
A few tips:
1.) When gluing up the strips of wood, look and the ends to see how the grain curves. For maximum strength, make sure the grain in one layer curves in the opposite direction as the next layer, repeating this though all the layers of your neck.
2.) When laminating a neck, position the boards so that they are lined up vertically on their edge. Lets assume you are working with alternating layers of black and white wood. If you orient them on edge, then as you look at your neck where the fretboard will be, you will see black and white stripes, and the sides of the neck should be a solid color. You will likely want to use an odd number of boards in this case so your sides of the neck will be the same color. If you are using the same color wood throughout, this additional odd numbered board won't matter. Orienting the board up on edge like this will better counter act the tension on the strings so the wood won't bend (warp) upward over time.
3.) If you are laminating a neck for the beauty of contrasting woods, you should be careful to choose woods that expand and contract with changes in humidity at similar rates. As I don't really know enough about woods to predict this, most my necks tend to be made of the same kind of wood, valuing strength over beauty.
4.) Be a bit conservative with the glue as it tends to ooze out and makes a mess of things once you clamp things together. I use wet wipes (clothier than tissues) to wipe up excess glue.
Hope this helps.
-Rand.
-home improvement stores that are in your area-
Again ,Italy is not well serviced . Better look for stuff on the web (ebay and such).
-check out the trim wood they have as well.-
Looking into parquet stuff I found some mahogany strips ,but they are like 1 foot long , not sure you can make a neck joining shorter peaces .
- real fret wire, and it's not as difficult to install as some people make it sound.-
..mh .
-Good luck with your builds...-
Thanks.
-single piece of nylon wrapped around for frets, no bridge or nut, just through-body indidvidual string ferrules. Hmmm. Much easier than an actual Fishbone Gittler. Hmm.-
Nice , the 3 bass strings look like being nylon made , are those available , as I've allways seen those made in metal ?
-HARD anodizing-
Yes ,it looks like a complicated procedure ,as a matter of facts I've not found any explanation of it on the web.
-some hazards in the occupational situation -
Try to google for nickel toxic guitar , that would suffice I guess.
- That build is covered by an article here in the intermediate builders group.-
I'll try to spot that one. Do you happen to have a url for that at hand ?
-this thread has me lost.-
.. sorry about that.I play now and then . Style , I would say ethnic . I am just trying to minimize skills requirement for an home built 'cookies' (I don't smoke) box guitar...I can start another thread : Cookie box guitar , is that what you want ?
Uncle John, you owe me a cup of coffee for the one I just blew out my nose. seriously. LOL!
Ok, again I wish to appologize, I wasnt making fun of anyone. I just find it funny how these discussions sometimes swing from one extreme to another.
Yes you can color anodize, but we were discussing HARD anodizing to make aluminum wear resistant. Thats a bit different, more complicated and either way, involves using acids and chemicals that make a little nickel exposure look pretty mild.
I am not sure why you are so interested in stainless fretwire, I have only seen it used in rare circumstances, and when I tried it once I found it so much more difficult to work with in the finishing stages I never used it again. Nickel exposures effects from playing guitar is a new one one me, I'll have to look into that. Yes it has some hazards in the occupational situation with constant exposure to dust or fumes from for instance grinding, welding and so forth.
You dont need any "exotic" wood.
Last winter as an experiment I built a perfectly playable 3 stringer out of a (aprox prices) $1 box, $5 poplar 1X4, and spent about $20 on tuners, fretwire and strings. A bridge and nut from some Corian samples and some time. That build is covered by an article here in the intermediate builders group.
My questions here going forward are what was never addressed to begin with:
One must assess his/her abilitys and skills, tools and equipment, and budget.
You need to determine what you want to build, primitive, beginner, advanced. From one string diddly bow to 12 strings and harps and beyond. I would recommend to anyone, to start with something that they feel is well within the "easy" range for them, because you WILL hit snags and things to learn along the way. Then you can re-assess what you want to do next. Starting out at a very difficult level only leads to frustration.
Assess what you want to end up with as a result. Do you play already? What style do you play, and how do you want your project to fit into that?
Gabrielle, you have described your self as a "newbie" but beyond that we have no idea what we are dealing with here. You started out with questions about a build concept far beyond even most of the super-advanced level builds here. Even Scott Winburn, (Who I use as an example because his builds are some of the more outragious, out of the box but yet somehow still functional I have ever seen.) He would likely look at the fishbone design and cringe a little. Big challenges there.
And this discussion long ago left the realm of discussing aluminum frets. I suggest we need to start a new discussion, back in the real world of helping this poster, and we can start by assesing what you really want to build. I'd like to help if I can, but to be honest this thread has me lost.
Play nice!
Mark
Gents,
Did some qwuickie searching onthe Gittler, and found his 1995 model:
Single piece of wood plank, single piece of nylon wrapped around for frets, no bridge or nut, just through-body indidvidual string ferrules. Hmmm. Much easier than an actual Fishbone Gittler. Hmm.-
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