I'm still in the aquiring parts and watching videos and planning stage. At this point I only play the radio but hoping that changes.

Wondering why I don't see people doing anything to protect the paper graphics on their boxes.

Gitty's phone dosen't seem to accept calls from Canada so could someone reccomend a set of 3 strings for a frettless 25 inch scale and would this change if the guitar had fretts?

I plan to just use a simple piezo under th bridge with a volume control.

Thanks in advance Frank

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    • Hi Frank,

      I tend to be rather wordy, but I have some info that I hope you'll welcome.

      A neck-through build style in a shallow cigar box can be problematic, but since you've gone as far as you have, it seems to me that you can continue and have something to be proud of having built yourself.
      Your concern about notching an additional 3/16" to get the neck surface flush with the top of the box seems unwarranted to me.
      You said that it will put the neck cutout notch within a hair's width of the glue joint, but from the pics, I don't see that to be the case.
      By adding a 1/4" thick fingerboard to the top side of the neck, that would no longer be a subject of any concern at all.
      On my first two builds, one fretless and one fretted with steel nails (that baby eats up strings really fast), I just installed a section of an old yardstick (not quite 1/4" thick, but, eh...), which I'd seen other folks do.
      That being said, I, and most folks, usually do make the "neck" itself flush with the box top, with the fretboard surface then being a 1/4" higher than the box top surface. 

      Something I see in your pics that stands out to me is that you've chosen to terminate the "heel" support block inside the tail end of the box.
      I build neck-through designs almost exclusively and I choose to always extend that support block all the way to the tail end of the main neck, outside of the box.
      A person might think that it looks a bit "blocky" and overly large, but to me it's not noticeably large looking at all.
      Also, once some material is removed from the neck as I'll describe further down, it'll no longer be a huge square chunk of wood sticking out from the end of the box.
       
      By extending the support block, you then have a thicker amount of wood to then be able to notch the section of the neck that passes through the box at a slight angle, deeper at the tail end of the box than at the entering end, which will result in the neck being angled back a bit as it extends upward from the box toward the nut and the tuners.
      It looks to me as if you can still do so with the way you now have things, but the neck will be just a tad bit weaker at that point.
      I think that it'd be okay as is, but if you were to extend the support block, you'd have no worries at all in that department.
      There are a few ways in which you could achieve that without butchering the neck, but it'd take a litle bit of effort in order to do so.
      A not impossible task, but yeah, some additional effort would be needed.

      I used to do all kinds of calculations to try to determine the best neck setback angle for every build in order to match my build to a specific pre-chosen bridge height, but I eventually came to realize that since cigar boxes and the other building materials that are used in CBGs flex in ways that are completely unpredictable in the planning stage, that I now simply make the neck cutout 3/16" or so deeper at the tail end of the box than where the neck enters the box, with that actual depth depending upon the length of the box.
      The longer that the box is, the deeper the notch will be by a little bit.
      And vice versa.
      You'll get the feel for it if you build more than one or two CBGs.

      After you've angled the cutout of the neck to give you a bit of neck setback angle, you'll find that the top of the neck as it exits the tail of the box will now be about 3/16" or so above the box top surface.
      Chisel, plane, file, sand, or do whatever you'd like to get that additional amount of wood down to the box top level.
      The tail of the neck will then no longer be a huge square of wood hanging out of the end of the box.
      It'll then be a rectangle of wood, which looks pleasant enough, to my taste anyway. 

      The reason that you want that bit of a neck setback angle is to have a bridge that is taller than that which is possible with a "straight" neck.
      A taller bridge results in achieving two goals.
      First, a taller bridge will cause greater force to be exerted to the box top, resulting in more sound volume being produced from the CBG.
      Second and even more importantly, to me anyway, is that if you have a "straight" neck rather than it being angled back a bit, the resulting lower bridge will leave very little clearance between the strings and the box top, making for very difficult picking of the strings.
      A taller bridge will give you more string clearance from the box top.
      That makes a big difference in the playability of a guitar.

      There are some folks who'll recommend adding bracing to the undersides of the more flexible box tops.
      I'm not a fan of doing so for a number of reasons, especially on a neckthrough build design.

      Once the neck and box construction work is done to a point where you're close to being ready to put strings on it, you can then determine the bridge height that is needed and cut a bridge to that height.
      I always cut a bridge a bit taller than calculated, which allows for a fudge factor to be dealt with next.
      Once it's all strung up, if the string action is then higher than you like, you can then remove a bit of material from the bottom of the bridge to achieve a good action height.
      That, of course, can't be done if the bridge starts out being too short.

      I believe you mentioned that this will be a fretless CBG, so the action height (the bottom of the strings to the top of the fretboard) is not really much of an issue, but having the additional string clearance over the top of the box in order to have additional "pickin" room, and having the taller bridge exerting more pressure on the box top, is important.  

      You also mentioned being concerned about needing to remove the hinges on the box.
      That's probably not at all necessary, although you can choose to do as you like.
      When I build with boxes that have a bit of height from the hinges to the box top itself, in order to be able to open and close the box after the build is complete, I'll do a bit of fine-tuning with a file to the sides of the cutouts in the box ends to allow for the neck to swing in and out of the box when it's opened and closed.
      It doesn't take much filing in order to get it to swing freely.
      A little fine-tuning with a file can also be done to the side of the neck where it would rub on the box as it's opened and closed.
      If a little bit of filing is done to both the neck and the box, that additional bit of clearance is barely discernible.
      As it's only necessary to be done on the treble side of the neck and box, you don't see it all when it's in the playing position, and it's not really noticeable when it's just leaning against the wall looking pretty, either. 

      I'll see about taking some detailed pics of my builds in order to show you what I'm talking about.
      A picture is worth a thousand words.
      Right now, though, I'm limited to trying to describe my meaning with words.
      I hope that it was a little bit clearer than mud to you. 

      I fondly remember starting out building CBGs.
      I was excited as all get out, trying to figure stuff out that would later become second nature, finding my own ways of doing things that might be different from how other folks might do them, depending on what tools and skills that I have available at any given time.
      I love messing with CBGs.

      Again, I'll see about getting some pics to you if they'll help clear the water somewhat, but I'm limited in that capacity for right now. 

      I hope that I've been of some help to you.
      I know that long posts can get to be tedious to read, but I'm attempting to be as detailed as possible in order to best assist you.

      I wish you the best of luck,

      Bob

       
       

      • Thanks again Taffy and Bob .As you can see I need to file a tad more out of the notch in the front of the lid. The addition of a red oak frettless frett board will bring the neck up to 1/16 above the lid this could be taken down level if necessary. I cut notches in the neck blank to allow more vibration in the top and bottom. Not sure how much bottom vibration I would get when held against my fat gut. I am unable to cut the notch in the back end of the lid any higher and even if I could it would leave a gap in the bottom of the notch so I can't introduce any back angle. My next attempt will require a deeper box and more planning. Waiting for my toys from Gitty the exchange was almost 50% good thing I ordered enough for 3 or more boxes . This will certainly help pass the winter ( most of my woodworking normally involves a chain saw).13403920666?profile=RESIZE_930x

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        • Hi Frank,

          It looks like you're on the way to getting her going.
          That's great!

          I apologize for being so wordy in my last message, spelling out my own methods in detail.

          As Taffy mentioned, everyone has their own ways of doing things.

          Some ways work as well as others, but they're just different.

          If you plan on continuing building CBGs, I imagine that your methods will evolve.
          Mine did, very quickly, but I tend to stay with very simple, neck-through designs, just because that's how I like to build them.

          I'm still of the opinion that you could get some back angle in the neck, but that's up to you.
          A little bit of a filler block of wood glued to the rear of the tail end of the neck to make up for where the box is already notched to it's present depth would allow that to work out.
          On some of my early builds, I've fitted in cosmetic filler boards here and there to cover over my "in-build" design changes (lol).
          No one knew about my doing so except me until just now.  : )

          As far as having the fretboard 1/16" above the box top, that additional elevation is desirable to have more string clearance over the box top for easier playability.
          It's usually, but not always, set at a full 1/4" by most builders, which is the thickness of most stock fretboard material, but that doesn't mean that you have to do it that way.

          You mentioned vibration against your gut.
          I've noticed that my CBGs massage my gut with vibrations much more than any of my store-bought traditional acoustic guitars.
          I mean big-time more gut vibration.
          Whether or not that's good, bad, or indifferent sonically, I know that it feels good on my gut.
          Ha, ha.

          Have you decided to keep the hinges or not?
          I like being able to keep the hinges operational for ease of accessing the innards in the future for whatever reasons may arise.

          Keep us posted on your progress if you care to.

          I'm excited for your success.

          Bob


          • I have put 4 little square posts in the corners to screw the top down to I will put the hinges back in but only attached to the bottom ( non functional ) just to fill the void.

            What are your thoughts on sound holes one two big small . If I thought If I could cleanly cut out the inside of the printed circles leaving the paint it might be interesting but If I screwed up I would have to remove all graphics and aply a finish. Possibly they would be too far back.

            • Hey Frank,

              Four posts will work fine to secure the top in lieu of using the hinges.
              That box has no latch, so some securing needs to be done using screws, anyway.
              I've never found any latches for sale that satisfied me, so if there's no existing latch, at least the non-hinged side get secured with screws on my builds.

              As far as sound holes go, I've been using the same concept ever since I stared building CBGs.
              I asked folks here, as you have, and a few different people recommended using a hole saw to cut a 1" hole in the SIDE of the box, on the BASS side, about 1-1/2" from the neck end of the box.or whatever looks proportionally correct to the builder.
              When that 1" hole was recommended to me, I wondered if a single 1" hole was sufficient.
              The people I was talking with said that they had done some experimentation with sound holes and that's what they liked.
              I'm in agreement with them.
              That's what I've done on all of my builds.
              On the first couple builds, I left the hole raw, except for smoothing it with a rat-tail file, then applying a clear finish to the entire box, spraying some finish into the hole edges.
              On later builds, I bought some 1" brass grommets to install in the holes.
              I got some antiquing solution to age the brass when used on a CBG that'd look better with a darker rather than a bright brass finish.

              What I really like about cutting the hole on the side of the box is that it leaves the box top unaltered, which allows the full real estate of the box top to vibrate as much as it can, and also the chances of boogering up a nice box top are absolutely zero.

              If you'd like to cut out the RP circles, there might be brass grommets of that size or something close to that size that would dress the holes up.
              I'm a fan of RP cigars myself, though, so I'd probably want to leave the circles as they are.
              You do you, though.

              The excitement level is rising!!!

              Bob


  • Hello, Frank, and welcome to you,

    As far as protecting graphics on boxes, there are different schools of thought.
    Some folks like the worn look that an unprotected surface will eventually acquire with heavy playing.
    Although I do think that can be a cool look, I like to protect them, using various types of clear spray finishes, acrylic, poly, maybe other types.
    I really can't remember everything I've ever used.
    When I first started building CBGs, I just used up old clear, spray finishes that I had sitting in my basement. 

    I prefer semi-gloss over gloss finishes.
    CBGs, to my way of thinking, are far too imperfect for a gloss finish to look good on them.

    I've been using Gitty's Blues Blasters on my fretless G,d,g tuned 25.5" 3-stringers for years.
    They're 44W, 34W, and 26W.
    That's what they were the last time that I bought them, anyway.

    I use slightly lighter versions on some of my fretted 3-stringers.
    42W, 30W, and 22W, is what I just measured that's on one of my fretted 25.5" G,d,g tuned 3-stringers.
    Those strings were from Gitty, too, but I don't know their item stock number offhand at the moment.

    The lighter versions are a tad easier on the fingers, maybe, than the Blues Blasters would be if used on a fretted neck.

    I like the grit of the heavier Blues Blaster strings when using a slide.
    They have a really "dirty" bluesy sound.

    A 0.5" scale difference from my 25.5" to your 25" is no problem.

    Gitty has some sets where they'll combine heavy or medium strings for the 2nd and 3rd strings with a very light string for the 1st string to, in some cases, be tuned an octave higher than the standard Gdg or EBe tunings, for example.
    I wouldn't recommend them to a beginner.
    You'll find different definitions for musical terminology depending on where you look online.
    Gitty's terminology as far as Low - Medium - High, and octave designations go, is their own terminology.
    It doesn't match a lot of the terminology of the mainstream musical world, although Gitty's language does make sense within their own world, once you understand it.
    I had to do some altering of my musical thinking when I first began to look at their website. 
     
    I saw that you mentioned a 23" scale in another response.
    You need to start going with heavier strings with that significant of a difference in scale from 25".
    There are other considerations regarding scale length, also.
    I use 23" and 21" scale lengths for 4 string tenor tunings, where all the strings are tuned a musical "fifth" (seven frets or seven half-steps) apart from each other.
    There are reasons why different scale lengths are used for different tunings, to accomodate fingerings for chords and the playing of melodies in those tunings.
    The scale length is not merely selected because somebody says, "Hey, I think I'll make a CBG with this size scale length now".
    Anyone can do whatever they want to, of course, but they'll find that they probably won't like playing a scale length that's not tuned for its usually intended setup. 
    That's not a problem, either, though.
    Just change the tuning to one that works better for that scale length and learn how to play it that way!
    Fun, fun, fun!!!

    It can take some time to learn that sort of stuff.
    I noticed that you mentioned that you're 81.
    Good for you that you're digging into a new hobby.
    I'm 66, have been playing stringed instruments since I was a teenager, but I got into CBGs only about 6 years ago.
    They're loads of fun to mess with.
    I think that this a hobby that helps keep the mind sharp, in the contemplation of different scale lengths, tunings, build types, amplification, etc. 
     
    D'Addario has an online string tension calculator that I use when I'm trying to select strings for certain different setups.
    It's called "String Tension Pro".
    It has no specific category for CBGs, and it takes a little bit of getting used to using it, but I've found it to be invaluable in choosing strings for all of my instruments, CBGs or store-bought traditional instruments.

    The goal is to get relatively even tension across all the strings with the tension being neither so low that the strings are sloppy, nor so high that the strings break, or that they stress the heck out of the neck of your instrument.
    15 lbs. per string is about what I've found to be a good midpoint tension, regardless of scale length, with workable tension going down to maybe 12 lbs. and upwards into the low 20s.
    Into the 20s is getting up there a bit, though, and 12lbs. might be borderline muddy sounding or too sloppy feeling to you.

    I've accumulated tons of extra strings over the years, so I do a lot of experimenting with diameters and tensions.

    I make and use what Justin Johnson calls a "bottle-cap" piezo, mounted about a inch or so to the side of the underside of the bass end of the bridge.
    I learned how to make them from a YouTube video with Justin Johnson being at some other guy's shop who was making them.
    If you haven't heard of him, Justin is a big-name online CBG guy, who shares lots of great information and who can play the daylights out of anything with a string on it.
    I haven't been able to find that specific "bottle-cap" piezo video any more, though it still might be out there.
    Supposedly, they "tame" the sometimes "too wild" sensitivity of a bare piezo somewhat.
    I think that they do, anyway.

    To make one, take an ordinary bottle cap, dig out the layer of semi-rubbery sealant layer that's inside the cap with a little screwdriver or a toothpick, snip a little opening/slot into the side of the cap for the piezo leads to exit the cap, then get a hot-glue gun heated up with plenty of glue stick available to you as needed.
    Of course, the piezo being used needs to be the proper diameter to fit inside the cap.
    Solder your leads to the piezo if it's not prewired.
    Being careful to not introduce any air bubbles into the glue, put a thin layer of hot glue in the cap, just enough to provide a flat surface across the inside of the bottle cap, then press the piezo into that still-hot layer of glue, with the leads facing up out of the cap towards you and routed through the slot in the cap that you pre-cut, again, being careful not to trap any air under the piezo, then once the glue has cooled just enough so that adding additional glue won't disturb the placement of the piezo in the bottle cap, fill the remainder of the bottle cap flush and level to the edges of the cap and let it cool.
    Again, be careful to prevent getting air bubbles in the glue.
    Air bubbles will cause sonic problems once you go to playing your creation through an amp. 
    When you're ready to install  the "bottle-cap piezo" in your CBG, get your hot glue gun heated up again, add a layer of glue to the glue in the bottle cap and place it where desired.
    Hold it in place until the glue cools.
    Remember, no air bubbles.

    I've had to move them a time or two from where I originally installed them, due to some heavy feedback problems.
    That's not much of a problem to deal with, either, carefully using a razor blade to cut through the glue holding it to the underside of the cigar box lid, then regluing it to your newly chosen, hopefully better sounding, location.

    Good luck to you!


  • Hi Frank and welcome. Your question on protection is covered well already, I was going to suggest a rattle can spray that I have seen advertised.

    Regarding the strings and fretted or not fretted neck question. Whatever strings you choose for the guitar the tone will change slightly, they may sound brighter. This is due to the metal-on-metal contact of string on frets as opposed to the string under soft finger-on-wood contact. Sustain will also improve with a fretted fingerboard.

    I play slide but incorporate finger on frets as well.

    You did not mention what piezo sensor you planned to use. I suspect a disc. There are three main types, Flat disc, which is the most common and easy to install, and strip piezo, which comes as a solid strip, or a flexible rope. The strip transducers sit under the saddle of the bridge for the best responce. 

    With the disc variety, one can move them around to get a tonal response they like, or to limit feed back.

    I a recent post here, last week, I talked about bridge setup, it might be helpful to check that out too. You can't gather too much info at the start, Enjoy

    Taff

  • Here's a video of the simplest Square one cbg build: Fretless slider- 

    https://youtu.be/pmzvfyOizV8?si=YWUj2ig-0IXXLSqD

  • We use polyurethane & water based finish to protect the paper, but most people like them when they show signs of wear, this is what we call "mojo"? 
    Here is an article from gitty about strings, and no it does not change if it's fretted or fretless? FYI- gitty's customer service is quite knowledgeable, but the best way to connect with them is through the website? 

    https://www.cigarboxguitar.com/knowledge-base/open-g-gdg-tuning-on-...

    “Open G” GDG Tuning on your Cigar Box Guitar: 4 Methods, with String Sizes & Sound Clips
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