Hi guys. After building my first guitar with a 25.5" scale and three kid-size guitars with 19.125" scales, I'm finding that the notes get sharper as I play up the neck, starting with the first fret. My tuning (for now) is CGC, and the low C string for instance plays a hair shy of C# at the 12th fret. I'm pretty anal (some people have other terms) about measurements, and I've checked fret placement with more than one calculator and everything seems to add up. What's going on?
You need to be a member of Cigar Box Nation to add comments!
Yes, I find most of my builds require about an additional 1/8 of an inch from the 12 fret to the bridge(move bridge back)compared to the length from the nut to the 12 fret.
Larry McInnes said:
I hear that on the over-planning. Too much thinking can get in the way.
Once you use a bar, barre chord the position of the nut is no longer relevant. Or for that matter if you play a scale that contains no open strings. Effecitively it is not the problem as it removed from the equation. Compensated nuts are for open notes and chords.
Don
Diane in Chicago said:
But if you find that you have a dime's width at the nut and a nickel at the 12th fret, and you are still "sharp-ing" at the frets nearest the nut, then you can - on the next build, sadly - use a trick I got somewhere on here a really really long time ago and am unlikely to find again, but I'll look and if I find the link I'll post it. It solved that problem for me, and this is it:
When I lay out my fret markings, I move the zero/nut mark back between 1/32 and 1/16 of an inch, to elongate the distance between the zero and all the other frets by that little amount. The extra length makes all the other notes a bit flatter and fixes the "sharp-ing" problem on the lowest frets. By the time to you get to the upper frets, the change becomes imperceptable and voila. I believe this is called "intonating the nut" -- or in my case, the zero fret.
And for zither pins, you need to have your wrench handy. I have enough trouble finding a pick.
Murray said:
The cedar is still straight.
I got the red oak plank surface planed & ripped & returned to me today. The guy who did it for me said it was high-moisture 'sapwood', very unstable. Turned right back into banana-boards after coming out of the planer.
I guess that's why it was $1.25 or $2 for 1x4.5x48"
Interestingly, the two sticks (~ 1x2-1/4 x 48) face to face LOOK flat, until you sight the stacked boards close to your eye and you can see they both have identical bow. Flip 'em around and it looks terrible.
I guess cedar is the starter...
Oh yeah, tuners...I thought about zither pins as economical, but can you imaging tuning with wrench and no gearing? (Quit whining, plenty of people use them, even zither-luthiers, right?)
I got the red oak plank surface planed & ripped & returned to me today. The guy who did it for me said it was high-moisture 'sapwood', very unstable. Turned right back into banana-boards after coming out of the planer.
I guess that's why it was $1.25 or $2 for 1x4.5x48"
Interestingly, the two sticks (~ 1x2-1/4 x 48) face to face LOOK flat, until you sight the stacked boards close to your eye and you can see they both have identical bow. Flip 'em around and it looks terrible.
I guess cedar is the starter...
Oh yeah, tuners...I thought about zither pins as economical, but can you imaging tuning with wrench and no gearing? (Quit whining, plenty of people use them, even zither-luthiers, right?)
I too have 'floating bridges' tho I tell my buyers that they have to set the intonation when they change strings. Intonation does change when you change strings/gauge.
-WY
Josh Gayou (SmokehouseGuitars) said:
That is why the saddles on all my acoustic bridge guitars float. Not only the reasons already listed, but different gauged strings will throw off your intonation as well.
That is why the saddles on all my acoustic bridge guitars float. Not only the reasons already listed, but different gauged strings will throw off your intonation as well.
Crow said:
when i build a guitar, the setup is not complete until i check the intonation at the 12th fret if the fretted note at 12 is too HIGH, then the bridge needs to move away, to make it lower if the note is too LOW, then the bridge needs to move closer, to make it higher.
i'm anal about intonation. i don't even use frets, i play with slide, but you'd better believe that my tuning and marks are VITAL to my ability to play it well. playing with a slide creates a tension/pitch relationship too, that must be accounted for.
i say, (and i've always had good results) to calculate and build exactly according to your planned scale length, and have a movable bridge, so that you can always fine-tune it after building.
Yow, there's a lot I could tell you about mistakes I've made...
The stupidest one is in my opinion the funniest...my first project was a 'FrankenStrat' for my daughter...all I really did myself was take a stripped body & neck, load the hardware back on and custom wire a pickguard at least three times until it did everything I wanted...which is far too much...
I had it in my head that the tremelo absolutely had to be floating (bidirectional bends), and a luthier friend encouraged that...no one else I know ever heard of that & thought it was crazy...the electronic tuner I used somehow got set to another key (F?) so all the strings were tuned a 4th high: E was A, A was D, D was G, etc.
I'd chase that Strat bridge all over & back getting all six strings tunes & retuned due to the interaction pulling back & forth - I was pretty proud I get that down to a science...but no one else could tune it.
In the morning the action would be up to about 3/8" and I'd break a high E getting it back off the ledger line and on the G clef again! After 4 broken strings I still wasn't gettin' it...figured the nut (the one ON the guitar, not the one building it) was bad, tried roller string trees, and on and on.
Finally my daughter's guitar teacher said check the tuner against a piano...that's when I realized it was transposed...the 10-46 string set felt like 13's. Other people checking it out said it was really hard to bend notes...
...duh...
One thing I would like to do is a fretless 4 string with the neck proportioned like a violin's...my daughter is quite proficient on violin and bought a mandolin and the frets are just 'wrong' to her. She also does a little pizzicato playing with the violin held like a guitar, in addition to her school orchestra 'at-the-chin' pizzicato technique.
She'd probably warm up to a fretless CBG with the same tuning and neck proportions as her regular axe! I guess it's OK to have high goals right? :O)
I'm with Crow on not over-planning. Several years ago I started building along with Guitarmaking - Tradition and Technology by Cumpiano (great read) but I never got past the scarf joint and heel. The next step was routing for the truss rod and at the time I couldn't afford a router or the buttload of special clamps you need down the line. I still have that neck blank sitting around! But a CBG can be easily built with just a saw, a drill, and some sandpaper.
Start building. Do whatever stupid thing your imagination comes up with. Cedar neck? Well, it's a softwood but why not? It's easy to work and if it fails you made some of the sweetest smelling sawdust in town.
I say build a fretless 3-string slide machine and quick. You'll gain knowledge, confidence, actually complete something, and you might dig it! Play a little blues shuffle, a couple licks and the Smoke on the Water riff and watch the smiles... people are suprised that what looks like a toy can make some serious tone through my little practice amp. And you should hear it through my 100w 2x12 combo LORDY!
If slide just doesn't float your boat, you can maybe fret it later or I guarantee you will find someone willing to buy it or receive it as a gift. I showed my first build (quick and a bit rough) to a few friends this weekend and 3 people want one lol.
Replies
Larry McInnes said:
Don
Diane in Chicago said:
Murray said:
I got the red oak plank surface planed & ripped & returned to me today. The guy who did it for me said it was high-moisture 'sapwood', very unstable. Turned right back into banana-boards after coming out of the planer.
I guess that's why it was $1.25 or $2 for 1x4.5x48"
Interestingly, the two sticks (~ 1x2-1/4 x 48) face to face LOOK flat, until you sight the stacked boards close to your eye and you can see they both have identical bow. Flip 'em around and it looks terrible.
I guess cedar is the starter...
Oh yeah, tuners...I thought about zither pins as economical, but can you imaging tuning with wrench and no gearing? (Quit whining, plenty of people use them, even zither-luthiers, right?)
NO, NO, not THAT finger!
I too have 'floating bridges' tho I tell my buyers that they have to set the intonation when they change strings. Intonation does change when you change strings/gauge.
-WY
Josh Gayou (SmokehouseGuitars) said:
Crow said:
The stupidest one is in my opinion the funniest...my first project was a 'FrankenStrat' for my daughter...all I really did myself was take a stripped body & neck, load the hardware back on and custom wire a pickguard at least three times until it did everything I wanted...which is far too much...
I had it in my head that the tremelo absolutely had to be floating (bidirectional bends), and a luthier friend encouraged that...no one else I know ever heard of that & thought it was crazy...the electronic tuner I used somehow got set to another key (F?) so all the strings were tuned a 4th high: E was A, A was D, D was G, etc.
I'd chase that Strat bridge all over & back getting all six strings tunes & retuned due to the interaction pulling back & forth - I was pretty proud I get that down to a science...but no one else could tune it.
In the morning the action would be up to about 3/8" and I'd break a high E getting it back off the ledger line and on the G clef again! After 4 broken strings I still wasn't gettin' it...figured the nut (the one ON the guitar, not the one building it) was bad, tried roller string trees, and on and on.
Finally my daughter's guitar teacher said check the tuner against a piano...that's when I realized it was transposed...the 10-46 string set felt like 13's. Other people checking it out said it was really hard to bend notes...
...duh...
One thing I would like to do is a fretless 4 string with the neck proportioned like a violin's...my daughter is quite proficient on violin and bought a mandolin and the frets are just 'wrong' to her. She also does a little pizzicato playing with the violin held like a guitar, in addition to her school orchestra 'at-the-chin' pizzicato technique.
She'd probably warm up to a fretless CBG with the same tuning and neck proportions as her regular axe! I guess it's OK to have high goals right? :O)
Start building. Do whatever stupid thing your imagination comes up with. Cedar neck? Well, it's a softwood but why not? It's easy to work and if it fails you made some of the sweetest smelling sawdust in town.
I say build a fretless 3-string slide machine and quick. You'll gain knowledge, confidence, actually complete something, and you might dig it! Play a little blues shuffle, a couple licks and the Smoke on the Water riff and watch the smiles... people are suprised that what looks like a toy can make some serious tone through my little practice amp. And you should hear it through my 100w 2x12 combo LORDY!
If slide just doesn't float your boat, you can maybe fret it later or I guarantee you will find someone willing to buy it or receive it as a gift. I showed my first build (quick and a bit rough) to a few friends this weekend and 3 people want one lol.
-
1
-
2
-
3
-
4
of 4 Next