Dazed & cornfused.........

Posted by George Durbin on August 16, 2011 at 7:06pm

Hi everybody - my first post.  I couldn't find the answer to this in any of the discussions, so if this has already been answered, please direct me to that post.

I'm working on my second build (a CB dulcimer affair) because, although the first one looked pretty okay for a first time effort it sounded HORRIBLE!  Turns out my frets were way off and the bridge & nut weren't balanced.  So even though I spent a lot of time carving that first neck and setting the frets (now that's FUN!!!), it didn't work, it's on to the next one.

The question:  if I understand this correctly, the scale is the length from the front of the nut to the back of the bridge - or is it the inside to inside??.  (Not to get too far off that thought, is there a difference between a bridge and a saddle?)  A friend of mine (who has been playing string instruments for 45 ++ years) told me that the bridge is not fixed by some math formula but by how the instrument sounds after you've set the action from the nut. If true, how can you define the scale if the bridge is flexible?

I cannot play all that well, so I need to make sure I get my pieces parts set correctly this time. 

I have been making CB kalimbas for a couple of weeks now and selling them at the local flea market, and would like to add the CB dulcimer and CBGs to the lineup.  But golly and gee whiz, if they sound awful, I'm gonna have to work that much harder to sell em!

Oh yeah, I converted that first effort to a single string diddly bow cause I just couldn't make myself turn it into firewood.

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Replies

  • Tony Davies August 17, 2011 at 3:43am

     

    Hope this helps305735983?profile=original

  • Wiley Rutledge August 16, 2011 at 9:53pm
    Nut to fret is almost always more accurate. Fret to fret can get pretty far off if you miss just one measurement on one fret---and it adds up quick.  If you work off a guitar (or dulcimer) fretboard directly onto your fretboard you'll probably get good results as long as you use the same VSL. Guitar frets are set a half step apart, while dulcimers use the standard major key spacing of step, step, halfstep, step, step, step, halfstep.
  • George Durbin August 16, 2011 at 8:56pm
    I'll do that, thanks.

    Dan Sleep said:

    George, I made some beginners videos and posted them on my page here. Take a look and see if any of it helps you out.

     

    Dan

  • George Durbin August 16, 2011 at 8:55pm

    Whoops - too late, I'm already addicted!  I've already built a couple dozen kalimbas and now it's time to get this dulcimer back on the table.  I have a fret calculator and a metric measuring stick but the uncertainty of what I need to do was dogging me.

    Measuring from fret to fret is probably what I messed up on the first one plus I measured off another instrument for the length and they actually don''t match.  I'll spend more time on the layout this go-round so it should be better!

    KaptnKen said:

    Scale length is the length of the string between nut and bridge, or as you say, inside to inside. It's the free length of string that can vibrate. First thing to do is settle on a scale length you want to use. I tend to use a 24.5" (or 625mm) length. Pick a guitar that's comfortable for you to play, measure the scale and use that as your length. Then once you have decided on the scale length, you need to determine the fret spacing. I use the fret calculator at Stewart-MacDonald... http://www.stewmac.com/FretCalculator ... and I use the metric length. Reason being is that it's a lot easier to guesstimate .275 millimeter on a metric ruler than it is .176" on an inch scale. And I suggest measuring each fret position from the nut rather than trying to measure between from fret to fret.

     

    Your friend is right to a point about the bridge location. Each string to be perfectly in tune should be just a little bit different in length for proper intonation. So there is a bit of flexibility in bridge location but not all that much. So in our imperfect world we get pretty close to that by angling the bridge just a wee bit to compensate and that's where the ear comes into play.

     

    Oh, and technically, a saddle is the part of the bridge that the strings actually rest on. Don't worry too much about it all, each build is a learning experience. The 2nd will be better...and then the 3rd...then the 4th....then...well, you get the idea, you're addicted :)

  • George Durbin August 16, 2011 at 8:49pm

    O

     

    Okay - thanks.  I'll go back thru the VSL thread and get caught up.   This one is going to be a dulcimer as well, mainly for that "no bad note" forgiveness. 

     


    Wiley Rutledge said:

    I'm sure it's in here somewhere but you could spend days finding it. What you're looking for is VSL (vibrating string length) which is measured from inside to inside of bridge and nut.  Bridge and saddle are essentially the same, just called by different names from place to place and instrument to instrument.  In a guitar type fret pattern, the bridge is usually double the distance from the 12th fret and with it not being attached except for string tension it can be tweaked to improve the sound if necessary, and sometimes a small amount will bring you in tune, or compensating (skewing) the bridge is all that's needed.  You'll find a lot more info if you go to the listings on CBG 101 (this group) and look for VSL or fretting--it's been maybe a month since the last discussion but it went on for a while.  A dulcimer fretting pattern simply leaves out some of the frets so you get a major key (hence "no bad notes"). If I've misspoke or left something out I'm sure someone will correct me, but that's a nutshell version.  Good luck.
  • Dan Sleep August 16, 2011 at 8:24pm

    George, I made some beginners videos and posted them on my page here. Take a look and see if any of it helps you out.

     

    Dan

  • KaptnKen August 16, 2011 at 8:23pm

    Scale length is the length of the string between nut and bridge, or as you say, inside to inside. It's the free length of string that can vibrate. First thing to do is settle on a scale length you want to use. I tend to use a 24.5" (or 625mm) length. Pick a guitar that's comfortable for you to play, measure the scale and use that as your length. Then once you have decided on the scale length, you need to determine the fret spacing. I use the fret calculator at Stewart-MacDonald... http://www.stewmac.com/FretCalculator ... and I use the metric length. Reason being is that it's a lot easier to guesstimate .275 millimeter on a metric ruler than it is .176" on an inch scale. And I suggest measuring each fret position from the nut rather than trying to measure between from fret to fret.

     

    Your friend is right to a point about the bridge location. Each string to be perfectly in tune should be just a little bit different in length for proper intonation. So there is a bit of flexibility in bridge location but not all that much. So in our imperfect world we get pretty close to that by angling the bridge just a wee bit to compensate and that's where the ear comes into play.

     

    Oh, and technically, a saddle is the part of the bridge that the strings actually rest on. Don't worry too much about it all, each build is a learning experience. The 2nd will be better...and then the 3rd...then the 4th....then...well, you get the idea, you're addicted :)

  • Wiley Rutledge August 16, 2011 at 8:11pm
    I'm sure it's in here somewhere but you could spend days finding it. What you're looking for is VSL (vibrating string length) which is measured from inside to inside of bridge and nut.  Bridge and saddle are essentially the same, just called by different names from place to place and instrument to instrument.  In a guitar type fret pattern, the bridge is usually double the distance from the 12th fret and with it not being attached except for string tension it can be tweaked to improve the sound if necessary, and sometimes a small amount will bring you in tune, or compensating (skewing) the bridge is all that's needed.  You'll find a lot more info if you go to the listings on CBG 101 (this group) and look for VSL or fretting--it's been maybe a month since the last discussion but it went on for a while.  A dulcimer fretting pattern simply leaves out some of the frets so you get a major key (hence "no bad notes"). If I've misspoke or left something out I'm sure someone will correct me, but that's a nutshell version.  Good luck.
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