Topic of the day it seems.
Hi folks!
I'm currently building a tin guitar or maybe it'll be a tin banjo. Four strings. The question now is what kind of strings to use to get a well intonated instrument! On my last (electric) build I finally made a intonated bridge and that really made a difference in quality to the guitar.
When looking at a electric guitar many of them have a adjustable bridges and most of them acoustics have a straight fixed bridge. I want to use a banjo bridge from cb gitty on my build and they have not enough material to do any compensations. Doesn't nylon strings need to be compensated to get in tune?
And what about banjo strings. What are they made of and what's the difference to guitar strings? Banjos are not compensated. Do they play in tune at all? I don't have a banjo around so I can check.
Would nylon strings be the best pick for a straight bridge?
Thanx in advance!
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So all of this talk bout nylon strings makes me wanna do something nylon stringish! Not this build though, I think. What I want to achieve with my tin build is to get some banjo like sound or maybe some reso sound. And for that It seems like a light pack of steel core strings would do the job. I assume that playing slide would be harder on nylon to. Due to the lesser string tension... (I might be wrong here)
A tilted bridge will deal with the intonation part. Also important is the set up. Angle, string height etc. and if I, by some reason would get madly obsessed with perpendicularly set up bridges my best shot would be with a set of nylon strings. Because they differ less in material thickness and therefore they pitch more evenly.
You guys are great and I love this site!!!
This thing about building cbgs really is like a drug. Highly addictive. I have seven builds planned in my head... It's killing me cause it takes me a year to build one. Don't have much spare time.
Yah ... I know the feeling. I want to do a classical build ... but ... There is the six string with Strat style pickup and P-90 to do .. And the twelve string with rod Piezo and preamp and Strat style pickup .... And the Sherwin Williams Dobro ... And I would really really like to try out some Flatpups .... I think I have to retire and get more time.
Standard compensation angle on a standard steel string acoustic is 1/8" per inch of saddle. On a cbg, if the strings are the same distance apart at the saddle as a standard guitar, the slant would be the same. If the strings are closer together, a more radical angle. If the strings are further apart, less angle.
As said earlier, the classical string saddle is typically straight across.
Some great input here. Regarding the banjo bridge (from Gitty or anywhere else), although the bridge is not visibly "compensated" but rather a straight edge, it's placement on the soundboard relative to the strings is not perpendicular like on a classical nylon string guitar or ukulele. The banjo bridge, when positioned properly, will have a slight angle relative to the strings.
As an example, if your scale length is 25" on a four string banjo, the distance from nut to bridge at string 1 (smallest) will be approx. 1/8" further from nut than scale length (25.109" plus or minus .030") and distance from nut to bridge on the 4th string (top or closest to player) will be slightly further away from nut...approx. 25.193" plus or minus .030"
This info is directly from the fretting calculator page of www.stewmac.com
Nylon string guitars and ukuleles almost always do not have a compensated bridge. Instead the bridge/saddle are perpendicular to strings (straight bridge, not angled)
Banjo strings are different in a couple ways. But essentially, they are similar to acoustic guitar strings (not solid nylon like classical or ukulele) and banjo strings have a loop end for connecting to the tail piece...not the ball end like seen on electric or many acoustic steel strings.
Well then. It all comes down to the sum of all parameters. As I’ve understood a piano and its tuning is a compromise too. I played the violin for some years and that’s a tough instrument for beginners. It’s so NOT rewarding. Takes many years before it sounds decent (I’m not really there yet). The guitar on the other hand lets you focus on your playing immediately. I like that.
Even though I’m building a stick in a box I like to think of the physics and mechanics to it. I don’t mind having a bolt for a bridge but when I start I just can’t stop myself from overdoing it. Why not make your own bridge when you´re at it…
On the violin there are three types of strings. Steel, synthetic and gut. When you’ve played on steel strings and change to synthetics it feels like you´ve mounted rubber bands on your instrument. Especially when you tune it up. You wind and wind and very little happens. They are elastic and I guess it’s the same with nylon strings too. My guess at this topic is, as Ron mentioned, that the stretchiness of the nylon strings makes it less sensitive to bending. Taking it to the extremes would be to compare it with a rubber band. You have to do really big manoevers with it in order to change its tone when you pluck it. My guess is also that when you make a vibrato on a nylon stringed classical guitar you have to do bigger moves with your finger. But of this I don’t know anything to be honest. I´m not a guitarist and I don’t have a guitar to check it.
I do love playing what I’ve built though and could do it for days if I had the opportunity J
Thank you all for your answers. I feel wiser now and I think I’ll just go for some light steel strings on my next build.
As you bend a string down to the fret board, the pitch rises slightly. The thicker the string, the more the pitch rises. On a set of strings, each one is a different thickness. Each string is going sharp by a different amount. Having an angled bridge or an adjustable bridge helps compensate for this to make all the notes as close to in tune as possible. Depending on the relative difference in string thickness, the bridge will need to be compensated more or less.
Nylon strings need less angle to the saddle because they differ in thickness a lot less, the treble ones need more compensating than a corresponding steel one would.
I wouldn't think string material has any bearing on intonation adjustments, that is all to do with correct scale length, correct fret spacing and compensated bridge adjustment. Just use ordinary steel guitar strings, the thickness will depend on the tuning and scale length you are using, but for argument's sake a good average would be the middle three or four strings from an ordinary electric guitar (some like acoustic bronzed strings) when tuned to open G.
Intonation adjustment with the bridge on a CBG is at best a compromise but I have had good results by tilting the bridge slightly on 3 or 4 stringed guitars.
As for nylon strings it would be interesting to experiment with them but they would be unusual on a CBG or Banjo in normal use.
:-)
Lotsa CB ukes ( shorter scale lengths, lower string tensions) use nylon strings, just like their uke counterparts. But Steve's right: intonation is a compromise, even on commercial instruments. Banjo strings are no different from light guitar strings, really. Your scale length, neck angle, string break angle at nut and bridge, fret height, fret width, bridge and saddle height, action at first and twelfth frets, bridge and saddle angle, are all important elements in intonation and compensation. All of which come together in a compromise solution. You could argue that string material and diameter, due to the different stretchiness or ductility of string materials plays a very minor role...but yer building a CBG. Get it as close as your skills and materials allow, then play it!
Replies
So all of this talk bout nylon strings makes me wanna do something nylon stringish! Not this build though, I think. What I want to achieve with my tin build is to get some banjo like sound or maybe some reso sound. And for that It seems like a light pack of steel core strings would do the job. I assume that playing slide would be harder on nylon to. Due to the lesser string tension... (I might be wrong here)
A tilted bridge will deal with the intonation part. Also important is the set up. Angle, string height etc. and if I, by some reason would get madly obsessed with perpendicularly set up bridges my best shot would be with a set of nylon strings. Because they differ less in material thickness and therefore they pitch more evenly.
You guys are great and I love this site!!!
This thing about building cbgs really is like a drug. Highly addictive. I have seven builds planned in my head... It's killing me cause it takes me a year to build one. Don't have much spare time.
Anyway thanks for the input on this subject.
Yah ... I know the feeling. I want to do a classical build ... but ... There is the six string with Strat style pickup and P-90 to do .. And the twelve string with rod Piezo and preamp and Strat style pickup .... And the Sherwin Williams Dobro ... And I would really really like to try out some Flatpups .... I think I have to retire and get more time.
As said earlier, the classical string saddle is typically straight across.
Some great input here. Regarding the banjo bridge (from Gitty or anywhere else), although the bridge is not visibly "compensated" but rather a straight edge, it's placement on the soundboard relative to the strings is not perpendicular like on a classical nylon string guitar or ukulele. The banjo bridge, when positioned properly, will have a slight angle relative to the strings.
As an example, if your scale length is 25" on a four string banjo, the distance from nut to bridge at string 1 (smallest) will be approx. 1/8" further from nut than scale length (25.109" plus or minus .030") and distance from nut to bridge on the 4th string (top or closest to player) will be slightly further away from nut...approx. 25.193" plus or minus .030"
This info is directly from the fretting calculator page of www.stewmac.com
Nylon string guitars and ukuleles almost always do not have a compensated bridge. Instead the bridge/saddle are perpendicular to strings (straight bridge, not angled)
Banjo strings are different in a couple ways. But essentially, they are similar to acoustic guitar strings (not solid nylon like classical or ukulele) and banjo strings have a loop end for connecting to the tail piece...not the ball end like seen on electric or many acoustic steel strings.
Hope this helps. Cheers
Well then. It all comes down to the sum of all parameters. As I’ve understood a piano and its tuning is a compromise too. I played the violin for some years and that’s a tough instrument for beginners. It’s so NOT rewarding. Takes many years before it sounds decent (I’m not really there yet). The guitar on the other hand lets you focus on your playing immediately. I like that.
Even though I’m building a stick in a box I like to think of the physics and mechanics to it. I don’t mind having a bolt for a bridge but when I start I just can’t stop myself from overdoing it. Why not make your own bridge when you´re at it…
On the violin there are three types of strings. Steel, synthetic and gut. When you’ve played on steel strings and change to synthetics it feels like you´ve mounted rubber bands on your instrument. Especially when you tune it up. You wind and wind and very little happens. They are elastic and I guess it’s the same with nylon strings too. My guess at this topic is, as Ron mentioned, that the stretchiness of the nylon strings makes it less sensitive to bending. Taking it to the extremes would be to compare it with a rubber band. You have to do really big manoevers with it in order to change its tone when you pluck it. My guess is also that when you make a vibrato on a nylon stringed classical guitar you have to do bigger moves with your finger. But of this I don’t know anything to be honest. I´m not a guitarist and I don’t have a guitar to check it.
I do love playing what I’ve built though and could do it for days if I had the opportunity J
Thank you all for your answers. I feel wiser now and I think I’ll just go for some light steel strings on my next build.
:-)
Intonation adjustment with the bridge on a CBG is at best a compromise but I have had good results by tilting the bridge slightly on 3 or 4 stringed guitars.
As for nylon strings it would be interesting to experiment with them but they would be unusual on a CBG or Banjo in normal use.
:-)