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Is this intonation or my playing?

Posted by Stewart Hutton on March 19, 2011 at 5:38am in Building Secrets, Tips, Advice, Discussion

I was delighted with the sound of my first CBG (tuned gdg), initially on open strings, and also as I learned my first bits of playing - around the 2nd and 3rd frets (drawn on) of the middle string. I impressed my totally unmusical self.

Barreing with my fingers across 3rd, 5th and 7th frets muffled the strings - but it *seemed* like it was going to be ok until I got a slide ...

... which I now have. And it sounds awful :(

It's not as simple as too high or to low - I've moved the slide around the fret position to try that - it's just discordant. And I've tried pressing down with the slide, and sitting the slide just on the strings - it changes the sound, but not it's tunefulness.

Individual strings are in tune +1 octave at the 12th "fret" but with the slide across they sound awful there too.

I suspect this may be "intonation" - which I didnt know about when I built it! I think I now understand how I would go about fixing that but my threaded bar bridge is unfortunately sitting in a slight groove I milled in the box top when I thought it had to be kept straight. Fixable but will look messy.

But as I've not used a slide before - is it possible it is my technique? Any easy slide exercises/experiments I can do rule that in or out?

 

As always, thaks in advance for any pointers.

 

 

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Replies

  • Keni Lee Burgess March 20, 2011 at 8:11am
    Just a note. Don't push down with the slide. It sould ride effortlessly on the strings. Proper string tension for the slide is produced by a relationship between tuning and string gauge. If you are tuning lower than standard (with a CBG with a standard scale length of about 23 inches) , usually heavier strings are need. This is why I use a .016 for my high string tuned to d (DAd or Dgbd). The rest are standard medium. Enjoy your practice. 
  • Vaughan S. Nelson-Lee March 19, 2011 at 10:38pm
    Try out floating mandolin bridges. They're cheap and all over ebay.

    Glaze said:

    Mr. Hutton

     

    An out of tune guitar does not sound very good.  I use a very good electronic tuner on my electrics and mine also will tune acoustics without electronics.  I just had and sold a Taylor 414 that had no electronics on it from the factory(fantastic acoustic by the way).

     

    My advice:

     

    1. Buy or borrow a really good electronic tuner that can tune acoustic and electric instruments if you already do not have one.

    2. Get your instrument in perfect tune first then you can check your intonation at the 12th fret which should be the same note as the string played open/unfretted.  If the open/unfretted note is in perfect tune, but your fretted note at the 12th fret position is not in tune then you need to adjust your bridge because the intonation is off.  Each string gauge requires a different adjustment length than other gauge sizes.  It usually is never straight across if you used different string gauges and none of the string gauges are exactly the same.  The bridge is usually at an angle once properly setup.  

    3.  Make sure your scale length measurement is right and your fret marker positions are correct also.  

     

    4. I have looked for an adjustable wood acoustic bridge.  I have not found one.  I have found plenty of metal electric guitar bridges that are adjustable.  Electric guitarists have all the luck...  

     

     

  • Stewart Hutton March 19, 2011 at 5:51pm

    Thanks guys

     

    Most of the build related items check out ok - my tuner is set up right, fret markers are accurate, individual strings open and 12th fret are tuned right, etc.

     

    Two things need some work: 1) Technique. Pressure, accuracy and alignment all need some practise I think. 2) there is no angle in this neck and the nut and bridge are the same size threaded bar. The nut is recessed so inevitably the action gets higher as you move up the neck. Deeper grooves in the bridge I guess may bring that down.

    I suspect a combination of those 2 elements is my problem.

     

  • Keni Lee Burgess March 19, 2011 at 1:40pm

    Good point MichaelS. Additionally I should add, if a guitar is built and set up correctly the string height should be quite consistent over the entire length of the fingerboard. It should not be close at fret 1 and significantly higher at fret 12. This too can account for the guitar going out of tune as you play higher up the fingerboard. Even with the slide, if this is the case, you might have the slide directly over the fret, but the incorrect action is making the alignment incorrect too. The tolerances are really high to produce accurate tones on a guitar. Be very careful with your fret placements!!!

    This is the real beauty of CBG building. Rather inexpensive to build, so you can learn as you go. Building aesthetically is the "Art of CBG Building", functioning correctly and sounding beautiful is the "Science Behind CBG Building". Form follows Function. You really need both sides of the coin to make a real great CBG. I would encourage builders to worry less initially how their builds look and spend more time on making them play accurately and sound amazing. Personally as a player, a CBG could look like crap, if it plays and sounds like a dream. I am definitely more of a function guy. Thank you everyone for sharing. Enjoy your builds and playing them too, Keni Lee      

  • MichaelS Country Boy Guitars March 19, 2011 at 11:23am
    This may be obvious but the slide needs to be right over the fret line, not behind it or in front of it, a little off will make it sound like an old dog howling at the moon, which could be a good thing if you like that sort of thing.
  • Glaze March 19, 2011 at 8:47am

    ChickenboneJohn and Keni Lee Burgess have really laid it out for you here.  Two thumbs way up.

     

    Many of my favorite forum members/builders are from the UK ChickenboneJohn.  Several of you UK guy's are really impressive with the builds and CBG playing.  

     

     

  • Keni Lee Burgess March 19, 2011 at 8:31am

    Fret or fret line placement needs to be very accurate. Once you determine the scale length (nut to bridge) the 12 fret is dead center. Using a fretboard calculator the 11 other frets can be accurately marked. Have you seen my fretless slide videos?

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YxIxmQtBAc&feature=channel_vide...

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_jDH_Zayg8&feature=channel_vide...

    Also, string height from the fingerboard (action) can not be too high either. It is not really a problem with slide playing, but if you fret notes with your fingers, not only will it be diffiecult with a high action, but the notes will be "bent" out of tune. Using a slightly heavier gauge will give you better string tension for the slide that you can balance with a lower tuning to get the correct string "feeling". I think you will find my videos explain it better.

    I hope this helps. Please feel free to contact me if I can be of any further assistance. Enjoy your practice, Keni Lee 

  • ChickenboneJohn March 19, 2011 at 8:21am

    This is a fretless guitar, yes?  When you use your fingers, you will be 'pulling' the note sharp, and the higher the action is the more pronounced the effect will be. Using a slide means you should just be resting  the slide on the strings, so it won't be pulling them  as sharp as it would with just your fingers against the fingerboard. Ideally, your strings should all be pretty much at the same tension, otherwise you'll have intonation problems with one string relative to another if they are significantly different tensions 

     

    Are you playing with the slide right over the fret...NOT where you'd normally place your fingers to fret it? And are you keeping the slide bang-on at right angles to the strings? 

     

    The good news is...NONE of this really matters. With a fretless guitar, and when playing slide, you just use the fret markers as a guide...you need to play using your ears rather than your eyes to make sure you are playing in tune. It's just the same as a good fiddle player..they know where to find the notes on the unmarked fingerboard, but it's their ears that give them the right note.

  • Glaze March 19, 2011 at 8:08am

    Mr. Hutton

     

    An out of tune guitar does not sound very good.  I use a very good electronic tuner on my electrics and mine also will tune acoustics without electronics.  I just had and sold a Taylor 414 that had no electronics on it from the factory(fantastic acoustic by the way).

     

    My advice:

     

    1. Buy or borrow a really good electronic tuner that can tune acoustic and electric instruments if you already do not have one.

    2. Get your instrument in perfect tune first then you can check your intonation at the 12th fret which should be the same note as the string played open/unfretted.  If the open/unfretted note is in perfect tune, but your fretted note at the 12th fret position is not in tune then you need to adjust your bridge because the intonation is off.  Each string gauge requires a different adjustment length than other gauge sizes.  It usually is never straight across if you used different string gauges and none of the string gauges are exactly the same.  The bridge is usually at an angle once properly setup.  

    3.  Make sure your scale length measurement is right and your fret marker positions are correct also.  

     

    4. I have looked for an adjustable wood acoustic bridge.  I have not found one.  I have found plenty of metal electric guitar bridges that are adjustable.  Electric guitarists have all the luck...  

     

     

  • Stewart Hutton March 19, 2011 at 7:46am

    Thanks - lots to look at there. I will play around this one to understand all that before I start on the next I think.

This reply was deleted.