Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Wes "I'm Baaaaack" Yates on June 3, 2010 at 2:16am

Heh. Gotcha! Sounds like the bridge is too high. Now that's not the only answer but that's what it sounds like. Check the intonation too!

When the bridge is too high, the string gets tighter the closer you get to the bridge (Pythagoras taught us that!). Might want to lower it. I usually have about 4mm clearance between the strings and the highest fret. THIS IS ONLY HOW I DO IT! You will have others that disagree or agree. Its to YOUR taste how you set that.

The second thing to check is the intonation. Make sure that the harmonic note* on the 12th fret is the same as the fretted note. * Harmonic notes are done when you place your finger lightly on the string at certain intervals such as the 12th fret and pluck the string. Makes a chiming sound (http://www.guitarlessonworld.com/lessons/lesson46.htm) If the fretted note is sharp, move the bridge back. If its flat, move the bridge forward. Retune the instrument in between adjustments!

-WY

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Permalink Reply by Mungo Park on June 3, 2010 at 4:21am

You might have to angle the bridge as it might not be the same distance for each string. The lowere the action the less the intonation effect. Cheers Ron.

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Permalink Reply by Diane in Chicago on June 3, 2010 at 4:38am

But if you find that you have a dime's width at the nut and a nickel at the 12th fret, and you are still "sharp-ing" at the frets nearest the nut, then you can - on the next build, sadly - use a trick I got somewhere on here a really really long time ago and am unlikely to find again, but I'll look and if I find the link I'll post it. It solved that problem for me, and this is it:

When I lay out my fret markings, I move the zero/nut mark back between 1/32 and 1/16 of an inch, to elongate the distance between the zero and all the other frets by that little amount. The extra length makes all the other notes a bit flatter and fixes the "sharp-ing" problem on the lowest frets. By the time to you get to the upper frets, the change becomes imperceptable and voila. I believe this is called "intonating the nut" -- or in my case, the zero fret.

Hope that helps!


Ah ha! the original thead - it is the Wes Yates post at the bottom of the page.
http://www.cigarboxnation.com/forum/topics/scale-length?id=2592684%...

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Permalink Reply by Wes "I'm Baaaaack" Yates on June 3, 2010 at 5:23am

Bravo Diane! You mentioned compensating for the nut. Not a usual diagnosis but also quite correct. I think what you might be referring to is :

http://www.doolinguitars.com/intonation/intonation4.html

And this whole series this guy has is REALLY great. Worth a read.

-WY

Diane in Chicago said:

But if you find that you have a dime's width at the nut and a nickel at the 12th fret, and you are still "sharp-ing" at the frets nearest the nut, then you can - on the next build, sadly - use a trick I got somewhere on here a really really long time ago and am unlikely to find again, but I'll look and if I find the link I'll post it. It solved that problem for me, and this is it:
When I lay out my fret markings, I move the zero/nut mark back between 1/32 and 1/16 of an inch, to elongate the distance between the zero and all the other frets by that little amount. The extra length makes all the other notes a bit flatter and fixes the "sharp-ing" problem on the lowest frets. By the time to you get to the upper frets, the change becomes imperceptable and voila. I believe this is called "intonating the nut" -- or in my case, the zero fret.
Hope that helps!


Ah ha! the original thead - it is the Wes Yates post at the bottom of the page.
http://www.cigarboxnation.com/forum/topics/scale-length?id=2592684%...

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Permalink Reply by Diane in Chicago on June 3, 2010 at 5:58am

Wes, that nut compensation thing has saved my bacon -- now all my instruments are right on the nose intonation-wise. And those articles are required reading -- even for part-time luthiers like ourselves.



Wes Yates said:

Bravo Diane! You mentioned compensating for the nut. Not a usual diagnosis but also quite correct. I think what you might be referring to is :

http://www.doolinguitars.com/intonation/intonation4.html

And this whole series this guy has is REALLY great. Worth a read.

-WY

Diane in Chicago said:

But if you find that you have a dime's width at the nut and a nickel at the 12th fret, and you are still "sharp-ing" at the frets nearest the nut, then you can - on the next build, sadly - use a trick I got somewhere on here a really really long time ago and am unlikely to find again, but I'll look and if I find the link I'll post it. It solved that problem for me, and this is it:
When I lay out my fret markings, I move the zero/nut mark back between 1/32 and 1/16 of an inch, to elongate the distance between the zero and all the other frets by that little amount. The extra length makes all the other notes a bit flatter and fixes the "sharp-ing" problem on the lowest frets. By the time to you get to the upper frets, the change becomes imperceptable and voila. I believe this is called "intonating the nut" -- or in my case, the zero fret.
Hope that helps!


Ah ha! the original thead - it is the Wes Yates post at the bottom of the page.
http://www.cigarboxnation.com/forum/topics/scale-length?id=2592684%...

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ben on June 3, 2010 at 7:53am

Diane, I appreciate your detail to intonation (and my ears do too). Let's just remember that we're using fret spacing rules for guitars...which are set up to have reasonably good pitch in all keys. Since the relative distance between notes changes depending on the key (for example, F# should be closer to G in the key of G than it should be in the key of D), the only instruments that can truly have perfect intonation are the ones without frets, keys, etc. (Like orchestral stringed instruments, trombone, voice, even slide whistle). Then it's up to the performer to make sure it has perfect intonation. Just ask any trumpet player about low D and C#. You've really got to kick out some slides to tune them down.

Diane in Chicago said:

Wes, that nut compensation thing has saved my bacon -- now all my instruments are right on the nose intonation-wise. And those articles are required reading -- even for part-time luthiers like ourselves.

Wes Yates said:

Bravo Diane! You mentioned compensating for the nut. Not a usual diagnosis but also quite correct. I think what you might be referring to is :

http://www.doolinguitars.com/intonation/intonation4.html

And this whole series this guy has is REALLY great. Worth a read.

-WY

Diane in Chicago said:

But if you find that you have a dime's width at the nut and a nickel at the 12th fret, and you are still "sharp-ing" at the frets nearest the nut, then you can - on the next build, sadly - use a trick I got somewhere on here a really really long time ago and am unlikely to find again, but I'll look and if I find the link I'll post it. It solved that problem for me, and this is it:
When I lay out my fret markings, I move the zero/nut mark back between 1/32 and 1/16 of an inch, to elongate the distance between the zero and all the other frets by that little amount. The extra length makes all the other notes a bit flatter and fixes the "sharp-ing" problem on the lowest frets. By the time to you get to the upper frets, the change becomes imperceptable and voila. I believe this is called "intonating the nut" -- or in my case, the zero fret.
Hope that helps!


Ah ha! the original thead - it is the Wes Yates post at the bottom of the page.
http://www.cigarboxnation.com/forum/topics/scale-length?id=2592684%...

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Wes "I'm Baaaaack" Yates on June 3, 2010 at 6:12am

As Diane mentioned, nuts are VERY important! I have also noted that too high of a nut can make the nut-end notes too sharp. Kinda like the bridge height issue. BUT her solution of shortening the nut=to=first fret is absolute!

-WY

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Permalink Reply by BenBob on June 3, 2010 at 7:34am

I agree with Wes' first post here - it sounds like the saddle needs to be moved away from the nut a bit. That's called "compensating" the saddle for the sharpening effect of pressing down the strings. And yes, it will depend on saddle height, and also what type of strings you have. That's why solidbodys tend to have individual saddle compensation for each string.

Diane & Wes, I read that article about compensating the nut and I'm not sold on it. Every guitar I've set up that played sharp in the first few frets simply had poor nut action. For fretted instruments, nuts have to be set up very, very precisely. Just a little error has a big effect in pitch and playability on the lower frets. A rule of thumb like "a dime's width" is not precice enough.

It's easy to check nut action. Hold each string down between the 2nd and 3rd fret. When you gently tap it over the 1st fret with your fingernail, it should click against the fret. If you can see a gap there, or you have to tap with any force to hear the string contact the fret, the nut needs to come down more. Of course, if you go just a couple of frog's hairs lower than perfect, your open string will buzz and it sucks to have to raise it, so be careful.

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Permalink Reply by Crow on June 4, 2010 at 6:54am

when i build a guitar, the setup is not complete until i check the intonation at the 12th fret
if the fretted note at 12 is too HIGH, then the bridge needs to move away, to make it lower
if the note is too LOW, then the bridge needs to move closer, to make it higher.

i'm anal about intonation. i don't even use frets, i play with slide, but you'd better believe that my tuning and marks are VITAL to my ability to play it well. playing with a slide creates a tension/pitch relationship too, that must be accounted for.

i say, (and i've always had good results) to calculate and build exactly according to your planned scale length, and have a movable bridge, so that you can always fine-tune it after building.

keep up the great work!!

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Permalink Reply by Diane in Chicago on June 4, 2010 at 1:56pm

I think the fret spacing rules I have been using are computer generated based on a mathematical formula and they do not compensate for string stretching. So I don't think that they they will always give you the best pitch -- especially near the nut.

Ben said:

Diane, I appreciate your detail to intonation (and my ears do too). Let's just remember that we're using fret spacing rules for guitars...which are set up to have reasonably good pitch in all keys. Since the relative distance between notes changes depending on the key (for example, F# should be closer to G in the key of G than it should be in the key of D), the only instruments that can truly have perfect intonation are the ones without frets, keys, etc. (Like orchestral stringed instruments, trombone, voice, even slide whistle). Then it's up to the performer to make sure it has perfect intonation. Just ask any trumpet player about low D and C#. You've really got to kick out some slides to tune them down.

Diane in Chicago said:

Wes, that nut compensation thing has saved my bacon -- now all my instruments are right on the nose intonation-wise. And those articles are required reading -- even for part-time luthiers like ourselves. Wes Yates said:

Bravo Diane! You mentioned compensating for the nut. Not a usual diagnosis but also quite correct. I think what you might be referring to is :

http://www.doolinguitars.com/intonation/intonation4.html
And this whole series this guy has is REALLY great. Worth a read.
-WY

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Permalink Reply by Wes "I'm Baaaaack" Yates on June 5, 2010 at 3:48am

I tend to agree with Diane here on this. I to cut my fretboards back ~1/32" at the nut as well and see great results. This is especially visible when you are playing open chords such as C, E, D (assume standard tuning). The articles I mention do explain that there is no way to get exact intonation nor pitch per fret being normally we use tempered instruments. Nonetheless, there is something to say about having that adjustment. If you disagree ok, but I encourage you to try it.

Slide guitars are quite another animal all together. Pitch is left up to the player where they think the pitch should be.

-WY

Diane in Chicago said:

I think the fret spacing rules I have been using are computer generated based on a mathematical formula and they do not compensate for string stretching. So I don't think that they they will always give you the best pitch -- especially near the nut.

Ben said:

Diane, I appreciate your detail to intonation (and my ears do too). Let's just remember that we're using fret spacing rules for guitars...which are set up to have reasonably good pitch in all keys. Since the relative distance between notes changes depending on the key (for example, F# should be closer to G in the key of G than it should be in the key of D), the only instruments that can truly have perfect intonation are the ones without frets, keys, etc. (Like orchestral stringed instruments, trombone, voice, even slide whistle). Then it's up to the performer to make sure it has perfect intonation. Just ask any trumpet player about low D and C#. You've really got to kick out some slides to tune them down.

Diane in Chicago said:

Wes, that nut compensation thing has saved my bacon -- now all my instruments are right on the nose intonation-wise. And those articles are required reading -- even for part-time luthiers like ourselves. Wes Yates said:

Bravo Diane! You mentioned compensating for the nut. Not a usual diagnosis but also quite correct. I think what you might be referring to is :

http://www.doolinguitars.com/intonation/intonation4.html
And this whole series this guy has is REALLY great. Worth a read.
-WY

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Wes "I'm Baaaaack" Yates on June 5, 2010 at 3:51am

Hmmmm, I wonder if you are using the slide a little hard. Usually it takes very little pressure to actually get the note. Tho there are many styles of playing slide, basically the slide acts as the fret and doesn't necessarily need to put tension on the string.

Just a thought.

-WY

Crow said:

i'm anal about intonation. i don't even use frets, i play with slide, but you'd better believe that my tuning and marks are VITAL to my ability to play it well. playing with a slide creates a tension/pitch relationship too, that must be accounted for.

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